Thinking about western dressage. Need saddle suggestions

[lorilu]

Every western saddle I have tried on him so far has elicited ears back snarl and a short choppy stride. He has a slight roach and just does not like anything on his loin area. Looking at all those western saddles, the area behind the cantel is rather flat. Seat seems to generally put me on my pockets (ie, weight on his loin).
I am NOT bemoaning close contact, etc etc.

I have just discovered this saddle: http://www.westerndressageridinggear.com/index.html

and I plan to test ride one as soon as I can. It has panels like a dressage saddle (open gullet all the way front to back), cut back skirts, and many rigging options.

thanks everyone!

[lorilu]

Thanks for the suggestions. SO far I have not found one horse likes. All the western saddles I have tried seem to sit on the slight roach he has on his loin. COmbine that with the general seat that puts me on my pockets and I have a snarling horse, ears laid back, short choppy stride.

Recently found this one: http://www.westerndressageridinggear.com/index.html

I will be trying it as soon as I can. Panels underneath look like a dressage saddle, clear gullet all the way through. Many rigging options, and cut back skirts for close contact - and a narrower twist, making it easier for me to drop my thigh.
thanks all.

[aktill]

Terrible, terrible tree style in that one. Can’t warn you off enough.

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/

[paulaedwina]

I have a BigHorn flex tree. Fella is very short and curvy in the back so I use a round skirt not a square skirt.

I’ve added another pad since this picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/20493915166/in/dateposted-public/

Paula

[Draftmare]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;8592343]
I have a BigHorn flex tree. Fella is very short and curvy in the back so I use a round skirt not a square skirt.

I’ve added another pad since this picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/20493915166/in/dateposted-public/

Paula[/QUOTE]

That looks nice. I am thinking I may end up with a Big Horn.

[lorilu]

[QUOTE=aktill;8591595]
Terrible, terrible tree style in that one. Can’t warn you off enough.

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/[/QUOTE]

Its not a flex tree.

[aktill]

It’s an “elastomer” tree right? Same thing. If you knew the number of fasteners that went into making a saddle you’d laugh at the concept of driving screws and nails into rubber, even if the trees weren’t fundamentally flawed to begin with.

I find it hilarious that the saddle company says it isn’t a flex tree, but it’s called equiflex by the mfgr. http://www.steelesaddletreellc.com/equi-flex.html

That’s like me saying it’s not sugar in my cookies, it’s a sweetening enhancement agent.

Your money though…

[NoSuchPerson]

I just remembered that I once read a review of the Fabtron Cross Trail saddle in which the person said that this is the saddle you would get if you let an English rider design a western saddle (and I believe that was meant as a compliment ). I recall nothing more about it than that and that the saddle doesn’t have a fleece underside but instead uses leather.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;8592343]
I have a BigHorn flex tree. Fella is very short and curvy in the back so I use a round skirt not a square skirt.

I’ve added another pad since this picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/20493915166/in/dateposted-public/

Paula[/QUOTE]

You know, that is what most I know always thought, but an old saddler told me no, if you use very rounded skirts on a short backed or downhill horse, you just take some of the spread of that weight out of the way and let the ends of the tree bars behind dig in the horse worse.

He said slightly rounded skirts or full square ones will lift along the line there and up and away from digging into the front of the hips, as a very round, short skirt may.

Do take a video with both kinds of saddles some day, close enough to see how the saddle fit behind as the horse moves along and see who is right and report back, if you can decide what is truly better?

That old saddler was talking about bigger saddles for heavy set, bigger riders, like plenty of cowboys are.
Maybe for lighter riders there is not that much difference?

[TXPiaffe]

I am riding in a Clinton Anderson saddle right now made by Martin. It fits my shorter backed horse nicely and is comfy with preturned stirrups . The downside is the price.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8593662]
You know, that is what most I know always thought, but an old saddler told me no, if you use very rounded skirts on a short backed or downhill horse, you just take some of the spread of that weight out of the way and let the ends of the tree bars behind dig in the horse worse.

He said slightly rounded skirts or full square ones will lift along the line there and up and away from digging into the front of the hips, as a very round, short skirt may.

Do take a video with both kinds of saddles some day, close enough to see how the saddle fit behind as the horse moves along and see who is right and report back, if you can decide what is truly better?

That old saddler was talking about bigger saddles for heavy set, bigger riders, like plenty of cowboys are.
Maybe for lighter riders there is not that much difference?[/QUOTE]

Isn’t the tree supposed to fit the horse without the saddle leather? So if the ends are digging into the back, it really doesn’t fit the horse well, and maybe a different tree would be better? I hate saddle fitting, there are so many variables to deal with…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8624459]
Isn’t the tree supposed to fit the horse without the saddle leather? So if the ends are digging into the back, it really doesn’t fit the horse well, and maybe a different tree would be better? I hate saddle fitting, there are so many variables to deal with…[/QUOTE]

Well, some saddle trees are intended to fit alone, others, you pad under them, flocking in English and some military saddles, skirts and saddle pads in others like western and pack saddles.

On principle, the tree alone could possibly fit well enough, but then we probably would use big, larger trees all around, not build saddles around a tree base?

[wondering]

I have a Melita Brown trail saddle I use for my Lusitano. He’s very short backed with big shoulders. Melita’s freedom tree is a great fit for him. She also makes a barrel saddle. I find the barrel saddles ride a bit bigger then the trail saddle.

[walkers]

Look at the european saddlery sites. Some sell saddles made for your breed. Italian,French,Kieffer and I found a saddle site in Portugal with all kinds of saddles including western dressage for your breed.There are some interesting saddle they market for Icelandics that may meet your need.
Prestige sells all sorts of saddles and some have western style fenders with english seats.
Its possible the men at Custom tree and saddle can make what you want ,they put english billets on a saddle for me.
I have a old round style circle y that weighs about 15 pounds. The seat is small but works well for me and has a narrow twist, go for narrow twist in western or you’ll never feel your horse.

[lorilu]

I went to Sarasota and tried the harmony saddle - he and I both loved it. Felt like a dressage saddle, looked like a western saddle, and no pinned ears. I ordered one - it will take a few months to get. I will report back!

(and I appreciate the suggestion regarding European sites, bit there is now ay I would order a saddle from overseas without trying one here! )

[RodeoFTW]

Curious, why don’t you want to just train him in lower level dressage with the gear that you have instead of changing tack?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8635967]
I went to Sarasota and tried the harmony saddle - he and I both loved it. Felt like a dressage saddle, looked like a western saddle, and no pinned ears. I ordered one - it will take a few months to get. I will report back!

(and I appreciate the suggestion regarding European sites, bit there is now ay I would order a saddle from overseas without trying one here! )[/QUOTE]

That is an interesting saddle.

Will see what you think once you are using it.

[lorilu]

[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8635993]
Curious, why don’t you want to just train him in lower level dressage with the gear that you have instead of changing tack?[/QUOTE]

First off, all his work is and will be based on “traditional” dressage.

Then, to the question: Because

1. contact is an issue; we are considering going to a bitless bridle or even all the way back to a bosal,
2. He has a very upright natural carriage - not conducive to lower level dressage (the stretchy circle will be a challenge, I know it is also in the lower level WD tests)
3. his trot is not scopey at all - (we are working on that),
   And because I know WD is just as valid in terms of training and value to the horse as “traditional” dressage.

Besides, it gives me a different set of patterns to learn and classes to enter!

[RodeoFTW]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8637450]
First off, all his work is and will be based on “traditional” dressage.

Then, to the question: Because

1. contact is an issue; we are considering going to a bitless bridle or even all the way back to a bosal,
2. He has a very upright natural carriage - not conducive to lower level dressage (the stretchy circle will be a challenge, I know it is also in the lower level WD tests)
3. his trot is not scopey at all - (we are working on that),
   And because I know WD is just as valid in terms of training and value to the horse as “traditional” dressage.

Besides, it gives me a different set of patterns to learn and classes to enter![/QUOTE]

Why does he have issues with contact?

I never really considered western dressage equal to the value to actual dressage, just because it’s all new and still under development. Kinda wish they’d name it something else, because it seems just weird to me personally. I mean, I’d try it, but the horse I’m looking at already does traditional dressage and he’s bred for performance, so there’s no logical reason to throw a western saddle on him.

I’m sure you already know this, but even if he’s an upright horse (and I prefer horses like that, I love Arabians and Morgans), wouldn’t he still benefit from learning to relax and stretch?

[lorilu]

From what I have been told, he was “ruined” by a “shove 'em forward” German dressage trainer years ago, and rebelled. Apparently he was quite the bad boy. Now he is 14, has done a lot of trail riding, cow work, etc, in a big curb with a roller, working primarily off the seat. (This thread started about a saddle search because he was so back sore from the big western saddle he was ridden in, he almost failed the vetting for lameness.!)
I am having luck with a mik-mar bit (broken with a roller); it is wide and flat but not sharp (the edges are all rounded), has setup for two sets of reins so I can use it mostly as a “snaffle”. Unfortunately, it is not a legal bit for any competition. We have tried french links, bean links, correction bits, pellams with a bean… you name it. No luck so far except with this one.
And yes, we are working on the stretch and losing the tension he gets when I pick up the reins. We start with a few minutes of loose rein walking, then warming up actively asking for a lower neck… getting a bit more success each time. He does not offer a “stretch to the bit” yet, because that comes from contact - it’s a circle game!! I have been riding Iberians for about 4 years now (various other types before, casual western as a youth and dressage as an adult), and work with a very classical trainer who appreciates the need for slow balanced work and a low neck to build the back and relaxation. She has a great deal of experience with the baroque breeds, and with her I have been successful in the traditional dressage arena with both an Andalusian and more recently a Lusitano. (Another time I would be happy to share some stories of disasterous clinics with “german style” trainers… and the weeks spent getting my horse’s mind back where it belongs. )

Looking forward to this new adventure.