THIS..... This is what will kill eventing

[OverandOnward]

@Ajierene

I am going to touch on something else and that’s the concept of “toughness”. Someone in another thread mentioned an NFL player that has multiple concussions and shows signs of lingering brain injuries to the point where coaches on other teams said he should be benched. The individual in the other thread said he’s “tough” because he keeps playing.

He’s not tough…he’s cognitively impaired, he doesn’t know how else to earn a living, he feels a need to prove himself, he’s competitive and can’t stand the thought of not being on the top…something else.

That was me. He is tough - very. He’s also cognitively impaired. And independently wealthy, having been a highly-compensated starting QB in the NFL for several years. Financially, he never has to work again if he doesn’t want to.

The real issue here as I see it: It is the nature of athletic competition that the athlete is not always the one to make the best decision, in their own best interests.

There must be oversight, during the competition. There must be outside input, even a final decision from a qualified team.

Two things are why:

• The athlete mentality to ‘keep going’ that is essential to all successful competitive athletics, and the human mind, but that can put aside critical factors that should weigh in.
• Possible or definite cognitive impairment of the athlete that interferes with their decision-making.

NFL Tua (videos below) may be a hyper-dramatic situation. But the extremes can help us clarify things for the muddy middle, where things aren’t always as clear.

**The true reason that NFL Tua keeps going is not because he’s tough or cognitively impaired (he’s both). It’s because the league, the team and the coaches are refusing to step in and stop him.

Basically, the individual least able to make the decision for the very reason of impairment - the athlete - is the only one making the decision, as of now. In the case of NFL Tua. And sometimes on cross-country courses.

And the Miami Dolphins continue to play him. Even though they could easily switch to some other QB and likely win (some excellent QB’s have been available in the last few years).

Even though fans, coaches, and officials, are all seeing this on the field … As you watch, should the decision be up to the athlete? or Officialdom?

Short YT: Experts say the motions of his arms and hands are indicative of brain injury.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_MKMP_GDpfg

Short YT: The man himself speaks about the one above.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rs0oquUmet0

Below, 4m 15s of another incident that occurred about 2 weeks BEFORE the one above. Once again, the arm/hand motion indicating brain injury. He took a brief time off before coming back for the above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPbg_KIyUko

Cross-country or NFL – Who should decide? The adrenaline-fueled athlete who is demonstrating the determination and commitment that successful athletics require?

Or an official, objective, informed, oversite team, who is present during the competition for this purpose?

[OverandOnward]

@dmveventer

I take the point that riders know their horses best and should be allowed to make decisions with that in mind, but my counterpoint to that is weighing the risks of carrying on vs erring on the side of caution.

I don’t agree that the rider knows best, in the moment. The rider is likely the least objective party in the situation.

The rider is the least able to “know best”, because they can’t see the horse from the side, from the overall view. And the rider is the competitor, chocked full of adrenaline and get-it-done energy, as they should be.

Plus pressures we can’t know about – feeling that this is their one chance to get into 5* going forward; or that there are financial pressures to finish; whatever it is. Riders who are the most likely to pull up when they should might be those who feel they have more options. This won’t be the end of their 5* career.

I don’t think the final decision should be up to the rider. If the rider continues, there needs to be a knowledgeable overseer, even a team of three or some small uneven number, to have a more objective opinion. And pull the rider off if they feel it is warranted.

[MHM]

@dmveventer

Pulling up a horse that turns out to be fine is disappointing to the rider and team, but everyone lives to run another day. Allowing a horse to continue and finding out later that it shouldn’t have could have serious consequences.

I think this is a very valid way to look at it.

I happened to catch a video of the Maryland Hunt Cup the other day, although I did not see the start of it.

But there was at least one horse who had lost his rider and continued to follow the other horses around the course and jump all the jumps for quite some time. He was trailing the group for most of it, but eventually he caught up with them and was in the middle of the pack as they were going over jumps. Finally he dropped back and disappeared from sight, so I’m guessing either he got tired or one of the outriders managed to grab him.

But I seriously doubt that the loose horse was thinking that if he could just get to the front by the finish line, he could win the Maryland Hunt Cup on his own without any stinking jockey on his back.

He was probably just trying to stick with the other horses, since that’s what they like to do as herd animals, and he was continuing to jump the jumps because that’s what his routine is all the time.

I think there were several jumps that he could have gone around, but he jumped them anyway.

I hope that he was no worse for wear by the time they finally caught him and got him back to the barn.

[dmveventer]

I said riders know their horses best, not that riders know best. There’s value in being able to feel what’s happening under you, and an official that doesn’t know the horse’s baseline is going to be missing information in the same way that the rider is missing information not being able to see the ground view. As I said, there need to be checks in place so the decision doesn’t rest solely with one person, and every decision should be made with welfare in mind above all.

[MHM]

The other thought that crossed my mind is that the guy on Phantom and the woman on the brown horse who almost came off after a cross country jump, but somehow managed to stay on, were both wearing German uniforms for the other phases, as I recall.

So I wonder if they might feel more pressure to continue or finish if part of their arrangement is that they are members of the military who are representing their country in international competition.

[Ajierene]

@OverandOnward

That was me. He is tough - very. He’s also cognitively impaired. And independently wealthy, having been a highly-compensated starting QB in the NFL for several years. Financially, he never has to work again if he doesn’t want to.

I cannot find the quote right now but I didn’t think it was from you and from what I recall, in the context it was implied that he was tough BECAUSE he was still playing. I do agree that outside input in athletic competitions is important because sometimes in the moment or in the long term, and individual is not making the best decisions for themselves. That may be trying to play on a freshly broken ankle, continuing to ride after a nasty looking horse fall, or continuing to play after multiple concussions and signs of impairment.

Also, it is a misnomer that he will be set for life - mostly because most NFL players (though it is getting better now) do not know how to financially plan so a lot go broke after retirement. This is especially true for those that only play a few years. They get that big, expensive house and then suddenly have no income and no skills to easily acquire same/similar income level.

This is not true across the board but is common enough that the NFL is setting up programs to keep former players from the poorhouse. I mention it because it is also important to note that even humans are not always doing things just for the “love of the game” - I do not know his financial status, he may feel like he needs the continued income.

Informative article on it:

Halftime Report | The reality of NFL pros going "broke" and the league's...

OK, I’m done with my tangent, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

EDIT: it WAS OverandOnward and it was from Dec!

@OverandOnward

But he’s a tough player who continues to go back into games after a clearly impactful injury. He continues to be the starter. He has missed only a few games due to the NFL ‘concussion protocol’.

Liz Halliday

The various sports may be very different, but that isn’t what counts. It is the way decisions about TBI histories are made that are relevant. Medical science is showing that, over time, concussion damage accumulates. That people with a history of concussions can be affected for a lifetime. Thinking, moods, behavior, etc. People with TBI histories can lose their ability to make good decisions. A history of TBI’s can lead to destroyed lives. There are several tragic NFL post-career examples of t…

Just quoted for clarity - I do read it as him being tough is the reason he keeps playing (as in if he weren’t tough, he would quit after a few concussions). I am not saying that was OverandOnwards intent but also why I caution using the word “tough” - I do not want some young kid getting the idea that this is what tough is and doing something like Tua is doing.

[frugalannie]

Great post Em.

[Ajierene]

You reminded me of an incident that people here on the board lauded the rider for - which is almost exactly as you posted. Someone fell off at the Olympics, went to the hospital, checked out to complete stadium jumping so their country could get on the podium for the team medals. I recall in the original thread, this was lauded as a commendable sacrifice but not only was the individual risking further damage to themselves, they were risking damage to their horse from impaired and hence improper riding/

[wanderlust]

@Heinz_57

According to the news articles and the statement from her family, her death was determined to be an accidental overdose due to combining several medications after an injury. Are you privy to some alternative information that it was found to be intentional, or just making the leap based on the sequence of events or gossip?

My sincerest apologies, the last I’d heard of it (a very long time ago) it was very much framed (and I guess speculated) as such. I’ll obviously retract my comment. My point still does stand that it about it though that the bullying was horrific for an accident in which clearly there was no malice and simply a mistake in judgement in the heat of the moment.

[Live_Wire]

I value other people’s opinions and truly enjoy hearing different perspectives, I will be the first person to admit I am not right or I didn’t think of it that way, but for the love of God, please familiarize yourself with the rules and proper definitions of the terms you’re throwing around and educate yourselves a bit.

Linked here for your convenience: 2025 FEI Eventing Rules

I would like to highlight this particular part of the rulebook:

515.2 Ground Jury
515.2.1 General Duties

The Ground Jury is ultimately responsible for the judging of the Competition and for settling all
problems that may arise during its jurisdiction.

Any member of the Ground Jury shall have the duty and full authority at any time during the
Competition to eliminate from the Competition any Horse that is lame, sick or exhausted and
any Athlete that is unfit to continue.

The Ground Jury will also be responsible for monitoring and taking action in any case of
dangerous riding (art. 525) and abuse of Horse

FOR CLARITY - CB & EK received their respective warnings on Saturday following cross country. This is public information. The procedure for issuing a warning is also listed in the rulebook

@Blackeventer

Since I believe he was under MJ’s “supervision”, I’m surprised he was not advised better…

@wanderlust

This is why people like Tamie Smith pull up the second they feel anything amiss.

I find these two comments in context of this conversation wildly hypocritical because both riders have received the same recorded warning as CB.

We need to understand that these are people. Receiving a yellow card or a warning doesn’t mean they’re abusive or lack a moral compass, it’s just a reminder that we are all human beings who are less than perfect.

edited for formatting.

[Annie10]

I remember Le Samurai. And Ruffian. And Barbaro. Adrenaline and drive are powerful things.

[Djones]

I listened to WFP’s interview from March 2025 on the Jon and Rick show. Talking about the LA Olympics. I guess there’s some talk about running cross country last? WFP was plain spoken about how SJ serves as a handbrake to ensure you try to come out of CC with a sound horse, one that can pass inspection to go onto the last phase.

What’s the scoop on that possible approach?

[kasams987]

Ahh yes, unfortunately, riders making the choice to not pull up is not shocking to me. The ground jury not pulling him up was a shock to me due to how the round was going. So that was my actual concern as to how bad does it have to be to get pulled up?

[dmveventer]

It’s been proposed but not final yet: https://eventingnation.com/revised-eventing-format-submitted-to-ioc-for-la-2028-consideration/

[MHM]

I don’t like that idea. At all.

[Djones]

I believe they also said that ticket sales at Paris for SJ were through the roof, evidence we don’t need to make the splashy CC go last.

Time will tell.

[Hunter_Princess1]

I am a foxhunter (primarily). I also ride hunter, jumpers, dabble in dressage, and am starting to foray into eventing.

My horse pulled a shoe mid-hunt one time, about three or so years ago. Footing was crappy, so it wasn’t unheard of, but none the less, I wasn’t crazy about pushing on in crappy footing and not knowing if and how my horse had potentially hurt herself when pulling said shoe. We took a cold, long walk in while she was still ready to keep going and probably would have been just fine. But in the back of my mind was years of hunts prior to this, where I’ve had slips or a hard scrabble on uneven footing that horses with shoes still had a challenge with, and I owed it to her to not ask her to do what I wouldn’t want to do myself.

I’ve also fallen off, and barring actual pain, and acute injury that I can identify at the moment, continued on. Some of those times I’ve retired early and left the group to go back in when my own adrenaline calms down and actual pain sets in and then I realize I should have gone in.

Many different cases for many different situations.

[OverandOnward]

@dmveventer

It’s been proposed but not final yet: https://eventingnation.com/revised-eventing-format-submitted-to-ioc-for-la-2028-consideration/

At this point, I’m considering the Olympics to be nearly irrelevant to the rest of eventing – other than as 4 days of intense international entertainment. But - at this point - especially after the last one, with people in the show jumping who hadn’t even ridden XC - their stupid re-vamping doesn’t seem to have anything to do with actual eventing.

There are humans involved with the Olympics, who know nothing about various sports, who need to feel they can manipulate anything as they wish, just for the attention and comments.

[OverandOnward]

@Live_Wire

515.2 Ground Jury
515.2.1 General Duties

…

Any member of the Ground Jury shall have the duty and full authority at any time during the
Competition to eliminate from the Competition any Horse that is lame, sick or exhausted and
any Athlete that is unfit to continue.

@kasams987

So that was my actual concern as to how bad does it have to be to get pulled up?

This is the question. This seems to be very much left up to the discretion of the Ground Jury. There isn’t much specific guidance. There are a wide range of opinions on Ground Juries.

This is how inconsistent interpretation and application of rules takes place. In any sport.

[OverandOnward]

@Ajierene

why I caution using the word “tough” - I do not want some young kid getting the idea that this is what tough is and doing something like Tua is doing.

That ship sailed many generations ago.

I doubt any young children are reading COTH and taking away lifetime influences.

Anyone who is currently surviving an eventing career, an NFL career, is absolutely 100% ‘tough’. That has nothing to do with how good is their judgment, or their health.