Liz Halliday

[Texarkana]

@MHM

@Texarkana

steeplechase racing for that matter

While I do genuinely believe that horse people in general are crazy, the steeplechase people are just on a whole different level.

It’s crazy enough to gallop down to big solid jumps at top speed by yourself, never mind with a group of others doing the same thing at the same time.

The compilation videos of steeplechase mishaps are just super nutty.

I don’t disagree.

But also, the steeplechase barns I’ve worked for have been full of the absolute best horsemen I’ve ever met in my life and the kindest people I’ve met in the horseworld.

It’s a strange paradox. To love and care for your animals so much yet also compete in something so dangerous. The horses who excel at it are just as paradoxical. They have to be athletic, independent thinkers, brave, and full of heart… yet also willing to trust and listen to their rider.

All of it makes for an environment that’s great to be a part of most of the time but dampened by the constant threat of tragedy.

[Demerara_Stables]

Comparing football or other sports to eventing is apples and oranges. If you want to go out and hurt yourself via broken bones or multiple concussions, that’s up to you. But to bring another being with you is a whole other situation. I’m not faulting people riding at the ULs, because there are a lot of good ones, and I don’t think it’s unethical to bring a horse along with you, but you just have to be so good and so accurate to be safe that…well, as I said, not for me.

[MHM]

@Texarkana

It’s a strange paradox. To love and care for your animals so much yet also compete in something so dangerous.

That really sums up a lot of horse sports. Particularly the ones involving doing things at speed.

[Marigold]

@Demerara_Stables

But to bring another being with you is a whole other situation. I’m not faulting people riding at the ULs, because there are a lot of good ones, and I don’t think it’s unethical to bring a horse along with you, but you just have to be so good and so accurate to be safe that…well, as I said, not for me.

It’s hard. Everyone draws the line somewhere. To think of it another way, many of us have dogs on our horse farms. The dogs are objectively at much higher risk than a nice little apartment dweller. Kicks from horses, interactions with farm equipment, vehicles pulling in and out, wild animals in the vicinity, etc. They would be much safer in the house, cuddled up on the couch all day. But would they be happier? Probably not. So we take some risk that the dog’s life might be shorter, in the hopes that it is better.

Am I introducing more risk into my horse’s life by eventing her? I am. But I’ve also never seen her happier than when she comes off cross country. She literally struts. She’s a good jumper, and she’d do well in that ring where they all fall down and the risk is lower, but her body language is completely different coming out of the show jumping ring (where she’s had a nice time) versus off the cross country course (where she’s had the time of her life).

How to decide? Where to draw the line? Frequency? Level/height? Speed? Sometimes? Never? The answers are different for everyone. For me, I simply do everything in my power to make sure she enjoys her time here on earth. I try to make sure she does it safely, I take the precautions I think are appropriate, and I’ll be devastated if her time ends before I think it should, but I accept that I cannot control every factor, no matter where I choose to draw the line personally. We all must accept that.

[fivestrideline]

@Marigold

The dogs are objectively at much higher risk than a nice little apartment dweller. Kicks from horses, interactions with farm equipment, vehicles pulling in and out, wild animals in the vicinity, etc. They would be much safer in the house, cuddled up on the couch all day. But would they be happier? Probably not. So we take some risk that the dog’s life might be shorter, in the hopes that it is better.

I don’t think this is a one-to-one comparison with horse sports though. Providing species-appropriate environments and enrichment (which free-roaming a farm may or may not be) is NOT the same as competing. It’s more akin to turnout. My horses come in with stupid turnout injuries, but do I keep them locked up in a nice cushy stall? No. Same with the dogs - I don’t bring them to the barn OR keep them locked up in the house because they are much happier and safer in the house and yard, with training and enrichment suitable to their needs.

Certain horses may enjoy working, but who is to say that it’s specifically XC? What about hunter pacing? Or trail riding? Heck, or being turned out on 100 acres in a herd? Or any number of other occupations that would fulfill that need to move. Thinking it’s specifically eventing that makes this horse happy isn’t accurate. It’s not how horses work. But if the risks are worth it to you for the fun you have with your horse - who enjoys her job - that’s great!

[OverandOnward]

The various sports may be very different, but that isn’t what counts. It is the way decisions about TBI histories are made that are relevant.

Medical science is showing that, over time, concussion damage accumulates. That people with a history of concussions can be affected for a lifetime. Thinking, moods, behavior, etc. People with TBI histories can lose their ability to make good decisions. A history of TBI’s can lead to destroyed lives.

There are several tragic NFL post-career examples of this. One could argue that there have been a few more stories among certain names that have been prominent in UL eventing.

The (NFL) Tua question is, imo, a good comparison question to many riders in horse sports generally that are also carrying around a history of multiple concussions.

Who should decide what their activity in the sport should be, and based on what criteria?

For those not up on the situation, Tua is the 26 yo QB of the Miami Dolphins, who has suffered multipe serious concussions during games between 2022 and 2024. There are reports of other concusions during his 3 year college career.

Tua has exhibited marked symptoms of TBI on the field, in front of cameras. Including staggering, a ‘fencing response’ (stiff arms), and unfocused eyes.

But he’s a tough player who continues to go back into games after a clearly impactful injury. He continues to be the starter. He has missed only a few games due to the NFL ‘concussion protocol’.

The Miami team organization, the head coach and the coaching staff seem to be leaving the decision to play up to Tua himself, and to the NFL concussion protocol rules. Tua is always on board to play.

The Tua situation is attracting increasingly heated controversy. Who should have the final decision if Tua should continue to play, should continue to pursue his NFL QB career? The league? The doctors? The coaches? Tua?

Fwiw, his parents have said that they have wanted him to retire from football since 2022 because of his accumulated TBI’s. Also, several head coaches of other teams have spoken publicly that Tua continuing to play is “extremely concerning”, in his own best interests. It is vanishingly rare for any head football coach to comment publicly on decisions being made by other teams. Tua’s TBI’s are the exception.

Anyway. I’m not sure that this will ever be a question for Liz, based on what very, very little we know now. But there are other riders out there – and have been in the past – who I think are/were a question mark of their own best interests.

And who should make those decisions, if TBI’s are damaging thought and decision processes.

(Tua is a one-name wonder because his full Samoan name is a lot for many commentators. Tuanigamanuolepola Tagovailoa. The pronunciation doesn’t strictly follow the spelling. So, in the U.S. he goes by Tua.)

[OverandOnward]

@Texarkana

But also, the steeplechase barns I’ve worked for have been full of the absolute best horsemen I’ve ever met in my life and the kindest people I’ve met in the horseworld.

It’s a strange paradox. To love and care for your animals so much yet also compete in something so dangerous. The horses who excel at it are just as paradoxical. They have to be athletic, independent thinkers, brave, and full of heart… yet also willing to trust and listen to their rider.

This is said by many to be true in eventing as well. The best cared-for horses, the riders who truly care about their mounts.

It could be that only the best horse people can make it through a season of UL eventing (or steeplechasing) with a horse fully able and qualified to compete.

[OverandOnward]

I can stick with UL and 5* eventing – for now, anyway. Most competitions don’t include a serious life-altering injury.

But the Grand National is too much for me. Even re-vamped, I cannot understand why a race that has horse deaths and serious horse accidents in almost every race is allowed to continue. The death stats alone make it a travesty, IMO.

[fivestrideline]

Thank you for the write up. I don’t follow football, but… wow. It seems (TO ME)almost unethical to allow Tua to play? It’s a valid question for horse sports too - with TBIs and concussions having verifiable impact on cognition, who gets to decide when someone has ‘had enough’?

[NeedsAdvil]

We have so many threads about safety and humane treatment of animals, is it possible to keep this thread about Liz?

[Marigold]

@fivestrideline

Certain horses may enjoy working, but who is to say that it’s specifically XC? What about hunter pacing? Or trail riding? Heck, or being turned out on 100 acres in a herd? Or any number of other occupations that would fulfill that need to move. Thinking it’s specifically eventing that makes this horse happy isn’t accurate. It’s not how horses work. But if the risks are worth it to you for the fun you have with your horse - who enjoys her job - that’s great!

I mean, me. She’s different after a trail ride than after a dressage test than after a jump school than after a cross-country school than after a cross-country round. Her body language is different, her state of mind is different. Of course I’m not saying it’s only eventing that makes her happy - lots of things make her happy, most notably snacks. But she only exhibits that particular puffed-up strut after a cross country round (not a cross country school), and it’s significant enough that onlookers who don’t know her as well have commented on it.

Can she have a good life without participating in that activity? Of course. But for me, that obvious enjoyment is a factor when I’m balancing risk (which is elevated by participating in that phase) with reward (which is also elevated by participating in that phase). Quantity is not the only factor that makes a life good. We all have to do that calculation for ourselves.

[seabreeze]

Was going to say the same thing. By some chance that her connections would happen to read this thread, I can’t imagine the discussion as it has evolved would be comforting to them.

[JenJ]

@OverandOnward

This is said by many to be true in eventing as well. The best cared-for horses, the riders who truly care about their mounts.

unfortunately with some uncommon but glaring exceptions, such as the individual whose abuse of the horses in his care, is the subject of another thread.

[TheJenners]

@MHM

The compilation videos of steeplechase mishaps are just super nutty.

See that’s how I feel about driving (carriage/horse, not cars) mishap videos. Like JFC.

[MHM]

Yes, those can be bad.

I still remember the day when I was a young kid and my mother was helping somebody break a horse to drive, and the horse took off with her in the cart.

That was an extremely long time ago by now, but I still remember how scary it was. She managed to get the horse back under control, thank goodness. But that has stuck with me all these years.

[M1ssmouse]

One word Betting.

[OverandOnward]

@M1ssmouse

One word Betting.

Oh wow. I believe it. That is a beyond-awful reason for allowing horse injuries and deaths to continue in every race.

[M1ssmouse]

Here in Ireland the revenue from race betting is enormous, off course alone bringing in 102 million a year approx. We are a tiny country, there’s no way the cruelty aspect will be allowed to stop that income rolling.

[Willesdon]

Social license to continue any and all equestrian activity is becoming an existential threat. In Eventing, it is horse and rider falls that attracts the negative (social) media. In horse racing, it is whip abuse in particular. Betting revenues cannot prevent change even in racing. .

[mvp]

@Marigold

@fivestrideline

Certain horses may enjoy working, but who is to say that it’s specifically XC? What about hunter pacing? Or trail riding? Heck, or being turned out on 100 acres in a herd? Or any number of other occupations that would fulfill that need to move. Thinking it’s specifically eventing that makes this horse happy isn’t accurate. It’s not how horses work. But if the risks are worth it to you for the fun you have with your horse - who enjoys her job - that’s great!

I mean, me. She’s different after a trail ride than after a dressage test than after a jump school than after a cross-country school than after a cross-country round. Her body language is different, her state of mind is different. Of course I’m not saying it’s only eventing that makes her happy - lots of things make her happy, most notably snacks. But she only exhibits that particular puffed-up strut after a cross country round (not a cross country school), and it’s significant enough that onlookers who don’t know her as well have commented on it.

Can she have a good life without participating in that activity? Of course. But for me, that obvious enjoyment is a factor when I’m balancing risk (which is elevated by participating in that phase) with reward (which is also elevated by participating in that phase). Quantity is not the only factor that makes a life good. We all have to do that calculation for ourselves.

I believe what you say about your horse’s need/opinion/interest in doing hard things so that she feels good about herself.

And if she needs to go to an actual event to get that high, so be it. (Because who would argue with a mare who wants nothing less than degrees from Harvard, Oxbridge (maybe the Sorbonne) and then a Nobel?).

But it seems to me that you could pull a Jimmy Wofford-- give her a technically-awesome ride around the XC course. Let her have the thrill of going around. Let you enjoy the prospect of doing it well, not doing it fast or at someone else’s optimum time. Also, if you are putting your emphasis on being a technician, not a git-r-done rider, your mare will enjoy the experience (I think this was one of Wofford’s argument for caring a lot about technique, equitation and an educated horse, even outside the stadium), And you both will be safe.

Of course this depends on your course designers building well.