THIS..... This is what will kill eventing

[Djones]

I believe they also said that ticket sales at Paris for SJ were through the roof, evidence we don’t need to make the splashy CC go last.

Time will tell.

[Hunter_Princess1]

I am a foxhunter (primarily). I also ride hunter, jumpers, dabble in dressage, and am starting to foray into eventing.

My horse pulled a shoe mid-hunt one time, about three or so years ago. Footing was crappy, so it wasn’t unheard of, but none the less, I wasn’t crazy about pushing on in crappy footing and not knowing if and how my horse had potentially hurt herself when pulling said shoe. We took a cold, long walk in while she was still ready to keep going and probably would have been just fine. But in the back of my mind was years of hunts prior to this, where I’ve had slips or a hard scrabble on uneven footing that horses with shoes still had a challenge with, and I owed it to her to not ask her to do what I wouldn’t want to do myself.

I’ve also fallen off, and barring actual pain, and acute injury that I can identify at the moment, continued on. Some of those times I’ve retired early and left the group to go back in when my own adrenaline calms down and actual pain sets in and then I realize I should have gone in.

Many different cases for many different situations.

[OverandOnward]

@dmveventer

It’s been proposed but not final yet: https://eventingnation.com/revised-eventing-format-submitted-to-ioc-for-la-2028-consideration/

At this point, I’m considering the Olympics to be nearly irrelevant to the rest of eventing – other than as 4 days of intense international entertainment. But - at this point - especially after the last one, with people in the show jumping who hadn’t even ridden XC - their stupid re-vamping doesn’t seem to have anything to do with actual eventing.

There are humans involved with the Olympics, who know nothing about various sports, who need to feel they can manipulate anything as they wish, just for the attention and comments.

[OverandOnward]

@Live_Wire

515.2 Ground Jury
515.2.1 General Duties

…

Any member of the Ground Jury shall have the duty and full authority at any time during the
Competition to eliminate from the Competition any Horse that is lame, sick or exhausted and
any Athlete that is unfit to continue.

@kasams987

So that was my actual concern as to how bad does it have to be to get pulled up?

This is the question. This seems to be very much left up to the discretion of the Ground Jury. There isn’t much specific guidance. There are a wide range of opinions on Ground Juries.

This is how inconsistent interpretation and application of rules takes place. In any sport.

[OverandOnward]

@Ajierene

why I caution using the word “tough” - I do not want some young kid getting the idea that this is what tough is and doing something like Tua is doing.

That ship sailed many generations ago.

I doubt any young children are reading COTH and taking away lifetime influences.

Anyone who is currently surviving an eventing career, an NFL career, is absolutely 100% ‘tough’. That has nothing to do with how good is their judgment, or their health.

[StormyDay]

For the eventing show jumping? Not the jumpers?
No offense to all eventers but eventing show jumping can be a bit like watching paint dry…. I mean not the most exciting part of the show. IMO the dressage portion is more exciting.

[Djones]

This is the eventing forum so yeah…WFP was expressing his concern about that plan.

[cristalle]

@Amberley

I will also say that the vast majority of the anti-cross country sentiment comes from the UK where organizations have parlayed anti-hunting sentiment into general anti-horse sentiment with a large dose of class war, anti-conservationism/ pro development and misogyny built in. I’m not British but have spent enough time living there to have a fairly good understanding but if you’ve spent your entire life in the USA and only read about it in articles and online it might look quite different. We are starting to see it on US social media now though, lots of comments about riding being wasteful and elitist and how the land and resources (and presumably the women themselves) could be better utilized by young men to raise families. We are hearing the same thing in the conservation space in which I am heavily involved. I’ve been watching that grow with alarm and at this point the US is facing losing public lands entirely and quite a large segment of the young male populations supports that. Or, ETA, maybe it’s better to state they feel it is inevitable and may as well happen sooner than later so they personally can benefit.

While this is a sidebar from this conversation, I find these developments all very worrisome. I knew there was a certain amount of perceived class war involved in the anti hunting movement, but did not know that it extended to riding generally, and the anti conservationism /pro development and misogyny is a worry. Young men seem to be radicalized everywhere, and I am at a loss to understand why.

[cristalle]

@wanderlust

I’ve read through this entire thread - am I so old that no one else here remembers Le Samurai? Who after stumbling, finished the course on adrenaline and then came through the finish lines with his clearly demolished leg swinging in the air?

That image, and that of Go For Wand are burned in my memory for ever.
The fact is that horses will go on, running on adrenaline, and they may be grievously hurt. It is the rider’s responsibility to try to protect them, to be their advocate, and to stop… At the very least to access the situation.

[trubandloki]

Sincere question - does the ground jury see the whole course as it is happening, some how, for all riders?

I feel like they generally, unless the rider already had something that notable to be mentioned in their communications (refusals, a fall, etc), how would the ground jury know that the course up until now was not just a course unless someone had been watching the whole thing?

[Amberley]

@cristalle

Young men seem to be radicalized everywhere, and I am at a loss to understand why.

Promising young men sex and money and a homestead of their own some day is traditionally how you get them to sign up for your war. It’s just been made easier with social media.

[Sticky_Situation]

I was at Kentucky the year Le Samurai got hurt too, although I only saw him earlier on course and was not at the finish. But the absolute hatred that Amy received from people on this very board (so fellow horse people … not animal rights loons or people who don’t know a horse from an antelope) makes me sad to this day. To be fair, there were people who were reasonable and kind about the situation, but so many people were accusing her of intentionally running the horse into the ground for her own greed, treating the horse as disposable, saying that she clearly only cared about winning and nobody who loved or cared about their horses could have possibly ever ended up in that situation, etc. when she was clearly devastated about her mistake. It stands out in my mind as one of the first examples I saw of the internet pitchfork mob setting out to destroy a person.

[leighbo009]

@trubandloki

Sincere question - does the ground jury see the whole course as it is happening, some how, for all riders?

I feel like they generally, unless the rider already had something that notable to be mentioned in their communications (refusals, a fall, etc), how would the ground jury know that the course up until now was not just a course unless someone had been watching the whole thing?

In the riders tent at XC finish, they have all the camera’s on the screen so that riders/grooms/officials can see all the horses on course at any point in the course. I think it was Mia Farley’s Instagram stories showed some videos from this screen (??).

Talking to someone who has been an official & team selector at these large events in the past, he said they may have stayed at these screens to watch all pairs over all jumps. So that would mean that they should have been able to see all the awkward jumps.

[quietann]

Just a guess, but since building a XC course at Santa Anita seems difficult, they intend to build it elsewhere and send horses there after SJ, to avoid the “5 day event” - actually a 6 day event this time around with 2 dressage days - like they had at the last LA Olympics. If they can get through SJ early on Day 3 and ship horses late that afternoon, it might be possible to do XC on Day 4.

[Ghazzu]

@Ajierene

Just quoted for clarity - I do read it as him being tough is the reason he keeps playing (as in if he weren’t tough, he would quit after a few concussions).

He’s clearly cognitively impaired, because a mentally competent QB wouldn’t be playing with a team that let him get hit that hard that often.

[Xctrygirl]

@quietann

Just a guess, but since building a XC course at Santa Anita seems difficult, they intend to build it elsewhere and send horses there after SJ, to avoid the “5 day event” - actually a 6 day event this time around with 2 dressage days - like they had at the last LA Olympics. If they can get through SJ early on Day 3 and ship horses late that afternoon, it might be possible to do XC on Day 4.

Not doable. New requirement mandates all elements of equestrian have to be at one site.

Em

[MHM]

@MHM

I would be interested to see that.

I did not see the video, but I read an account from somebody who said the reason that they now have flags on both the front and back standard of oxers in show jumping is because one day Rodney Jenkins was really taking a slice on a turn in the air, and the horse responded so well that he actually landed inside the back rail of the oxer and continued on his way.

And there was no rule on the books at the time that said he couldn’t do it! So they changed that pretty quickly. Lol.

I’m circling back and quoting myself because I just came across a photo of Rodney Jenkins that shows how committed he could be to turning over a jump. This is not the jump that inspired the rule change. But it’s a pretty good example of Rodney in action. Bless him.

[OverandOnward]

@trubandloki

Sincere question - does the ground jury see the whole course as it is happening, some how, for all riders?

I feel like they generally, unless the rider already had something that notable to be mentioned in their communications (refusals, a fall, etc), how would the ground jury know that the course up until now was not just a course unless someone had been watching the whole thing?

@leighbo009

Talking to someone who has been an official & team selector at these large events in the past, he said they may have stayed at these screens to watch all pairs over all jumps. So that would mean that they should have been able to see all the awkward jumps.

So this is also a very good question. What are ground juries doing while cross-country is running? What should they be doing, and what qualifications should ground jury members have for the role?

I’m not close enough to the ‘big events’ (many UL entries; divisions at Advanced; FEI divisions) to know what they do there. In my current very tiny corner of the sport, the ground jury is not pro-active. They wait for the TD to bring them a concern. I’m sure it is very different at KY 3DE and other big events with more and higher UL divisions.

Obviously camera coverage has greatly increased the ability to view what is happening on course. How closely are ground juries monitoring the videos? What are they being asked to do by the organization?

How specific are the directions given by the organization as to their role, and how they perform it, and how much is left up to the ground jury’s discretion? A major factor in how the ground jury job is done.

Also, what are the qualifications to be asked to be on a ground jury? For the trickier UL courses, what past experience is required as opposed to just desirable? How well are ground jury members checked for their knowledge of their role, and the rules generally? That kind of thing, to make sure knowledgeable people, with good judgment, are in place.

At times in the past I remember that ‘ground jury’ wasn’t as qualified as some might have liked. From time to time, that affected some questionable decision-making. And non-decision-making. There were sometimes selections made on status in the local organization, rather than real qualifications. Some airy ideas that of course everyone selected was the best at everything. Not really a sound criteria for good decisions.

There is another function during the event called “course control”. This individual listens to radio calls and tracks all competitors on course, throughout the course, on a giant paper spreadsheet. (Is anywhere using a computer for this?) To know when a competitor is paused on course, and how fast the next competitor is closing the distance. Track eliminations and be sure they exit. Help officials know when to intervene to prevent a dangerous situation. BUT they don’t have the visibility, time or scope to know how each pair is faring during their ride (unless a jump judge calls out a concern). Theoretically course control is a center of immediate knowledge. But there are inherent limitations on what the function can do.

[MHM]

@leighbo009

I think it was Mia Farley’s Instagram stories showed some videos from this screen (??).

I looked on her Instagram account and I did not see it there. But I don’t do Instagram much, so maybe I just couldn’t find it.

[fivestrideline]

Stories disappear after 24 hours, so it’s likely not up anymore.