Very true statement. I think I just read your post different as you quoted a post stating that a horse getting up and running is not necessarily indicative of them WANTING to in that instance. A lot of the rhetoric around horses loving to jump (in this instance) revolved around reasons to keep going or reasons the horse got up and started running again and jumped well. That is not necessarily the case that he was fine and doing what he loved. He would have likely been just as content to retire that day and enjoy some hay.
To anthropomorphize, the horse didn’t fall down and then get up and think, “Oh man, I have 10 (disclaimer: I am not sure where they were on course so I just made up a number) more jumps and I want to complete and I want to stadium jump tomorrow!”
That is the sentiment some people seem to be putting forward that the post you quoted was countering.
I believe that the round, and the final moments, were preserved on the CD that was available for purchase of every KY 3DE at the time.
Wherever I saw it, I vividly remember at the finish line Amy flinging herself off the horse the instant she realized. Then standing beside him with tears streaming down her usually stoic face, keeping him still while help was working on him. Amy was devastated. There was no doubt that her heart was in that horse.
I’ve been thinking about this part in particular. Calvin is only 24, so his brain is technically still developing. I’m not trying to discount how many capable, thoughtful young riders we have in the sport, but part of me also wonders if it’s reasonable to expect someone so young to make a sound decision in the heat of the moment like that. Fully agree that we need the ground jury to step up as the experienced, impartial adults in the field to make sure sound decisions are being made.
I take the point that riders know their horses best and should be allowed to make decisions with that in mind, but my counterpoint to that is weighing the risks of carrying on vs erring on the side of caution. Pulling up a horse that turns out to be fine is disappointing to the rider and team, but everyone lives to run another day. Allowing a horse to continue and finding out later that it shouldn’t have could have serious consequences. So while yes, in this case the horse did seem to recover well and be no worse for wear the next day, I still would have liked to see the rider and/or officials pull him up just to be safe. I don’t think we lose anything by erring on the side of horse welfare in situations like this.
ahh… missed that perspective. and agree w/ you. I do not agree w/ the sentiment that the horse that fell was being competitive and had any great thoughts about the need to continue.
Oh for sure, all my tb’s have wanted to be in front. Trail riding you’ll find some horses need to be in the lead. But that’s not the same as saying they love being ridden.
That was me. He is tough - very. He’s also cognitively impaired. And independently wealthy, having been a highly-compensated starting QB in the NFL for several years. Financially, he never has to work again if he doesn’t want to.
The real issue here as I see it: It is the nature of athletic competition that the athlete is not always the one to make the best decision, in their own best interests.
There must be oversight, during the competition. There must be outside input, even a final decision from a qualified team.
Two things are why:
The athlete mentality to ‘keep going’ that is essential to all successful competitive athletics, and the human mind, but that can put aside critical factors that should weigh in.
Possible or definite cognitive impairment of the athlete that interferes with their decision-making.
NFL Tua (videos below) may be a hyper-dramatic situation. But the extremes can help us clarify things for the muddy middle, where things aren’t always as clear.
**The true reason that NFL Tua keeps going is not because he’s tough or cognitively impaired (he’s both). It’s because the league, the team and the coaches are refusing to step in and stop him.
Basically, the individual least able to make the decision for the very reason of impairment - the athlete - is the only one making the decision, as of now. In the case of NFL Tua. And sometimes on cross-country courses.
And the Miami Dolphins continue to play him. Even though they could easily switch to some other QB and likely win (some excellent QB’s have been available in the last few years).
Even though fans, coaches, and officials, are all seeing this on the field … As you watch, should the decision be up to the athlete? or Officialdom?
Short YT: Experts say the motions of his arms and hands are indicative of brain injury.
Below, 4m 15s of another incident that occurred about 2 weeks BEFORE the one above. Once again, the arm/hand motion indicating brain injury. He took a brief time off before coming back for the above.
Cross-country or NFL – Who should decide? The adrenaline-fueled athlete who is demonstrating the determination and commitment that successful athletics require?
Or an official, objective, informed, oversite team, who is present during the competition for this purpose?
I don’t agree that the rider knows best, in the moment. The rider is likely the least objective party in the situation.
The rider is the least able to “know best”, because they can’t see the horse from the side, from the overall view. And the rider is the competitor, chocked full of adrenaline and get-it-done energy, as they should be.
Plus pressures we can’t know about – feeling that this is their one chance to get into 5* going forward; or that there are financial pressures to finish; whatever it is. Riders who are the most likely to pull up when they should might be those who feel they have more options. This won’t be the end of their 5* career.
I don’t think the final decision should be up to the rider. If the rider continues, there needs to be a knowledgeable overseer, even a team of three or some small uneven number, to have a more objective opinion. And pull the rider off if they feel it is warranted.
I happened to catch a video of the Maryland Hunt Cup the other day, although I did not see the start of it.
But there was at least one horse who had lost his rider and continued to follow the other horses around the course and jump all the jumps for quite some time. He was trailing the group for most of it, but eventually he caught up with them and was in the middle of the pack as they were going over jumps. Finally he dropped back and disappeared from sight, so I’m guessing either he got tired or one of the outriders managed to grab him.
But I seriously doubt that the loose horse was thinking that if he could just get to the front by the finish line, he could win the Maryland Hunt Cup on his own without any stinking jockey on his back.
He was probably just trying to stick with the other horses, since that’s what they like to do as herd animals, and he was continuing to jump the jumps because that’s what his routine is all the time.
I think there were several jumps that he could have gone around, but he jumped them anyway.
I hope that he was no worse for wear by the time they finally caught him and got him back to the barn.
I said riders know their horses best, not that riders know best. There’s value in being able to feel what’s happening under you, and an official that doesn’t know the horse’s baseline is going to be missing information in the same way that the rider is missing information not being able to see the ground view. As I said, there need to be checks in place so the decision doesn’t rest solely with one person, and every decision should be made with welfare in mind above all.
The other thought that crossed my mind is that the guy on Phantom and the woman on the brown horse who almost came off after a cross country jump, but somehow managed to stay on, were both wearing German uniforms for the other phases, as I recall.
So I wonder if they might feel more pressure to continue or finish if part of their arrangement is that they are members of the military who are representing their country in international competition.
I cannot find the quote right now but I didn’t think it was from you and from what I recall, in the context it was implied that he was tough BECAUSE he was still playing. I do agree that outside input in athletic competitions is important because sometimes in the moment or in the long term, and individual is not making the best decisions for themselves. That may be trying to play on a freshly broken ankle, continuing to ride after a nasty looking horse fall, or continuing to play after multiple concussions and signs of impairment.
Also, it is a misnomer that he will be set for life - mostly because most NFL players (though it is getting better now) do not know how to financially plan so a lot go broke after retirement. This is especially true for those that only play a few years. They get that big, expensive house and then suddenly have no income and no skills to easily acquire same/similar income level.
This is not true across the board but is common enough that the NFL is setting up programs to keep former players from the poorhouse. I mention it because it is also important to note that even humans are not always doing things just for the “love of the game” - I do not know his financial status, he may feel like he needs the continued income.
Informative article on it:
OK, I’m done with my tangent, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
EDIT: it WAS OverandOnward and it was from Dec!
Just quoted for clarity - I do read it as him being tough is the reason he keeps playing (as in if he weren’t tough, he would quit after a few concussions). I am not saying that was OverandOnwards intent but also why I caution using the word “tough” - I do not want some young kid getting the idea that this is what tough is and doing something like Tua is doing.
You reminded me of an incident that people here on the board lauded the rider for - which is almost exactly as you posted. Someone fell off at the Olympics, went to the hospital, checked out to complete stadium jumping so their country could get on the podium for the team medals. I recall in the original thread, this was lauded as a commendable sacrifice but not only was the individual risking further damage to themselves, they were risking damage to their horse from impaired and hence improper riding/
My sincerest apologies, the last I’d heard of it (a very long time ago) it was very much framed (and I guess speculated) as such. I’ll obviously retract my comment. My point still does stand that it about it though that the bullying was horrific for an accident in which clearly there was no malice and simply a mistake in judgement in the heat of the moment.
I value other people’s opinions and truly enjoy hearing different perspectives, I will be the first person to admit I am not right or I didn’t think of it that way, but for the love of God, please familiarize yourself with the rules and proper definitions of the terms you’re throwing around and educate yourselves a bit.
I would like to highlight this particular part of the rulebook:
515.2 Ground Jury 515.2.1 General Duties
The Ground Jury is ultimately responsible for the judging of the Competition and for settling all problems that may arise during its jurisdiction.
Any member of the Ground Jury shall have the duty and full authority at any time during the Competition to eliminate from the Competition any Horse that is lame, sick or exhausted and any Athlete that is unfit to continue.
The Ground Jury will also be responsible for monitoring and taking action in any case of dangerous riding (art. 525) and abuse of Horse
FOR CLARITY - CB & EK received their respective warnings on Saturday following cross country. This is public information. The procedure for issuing a warning is also listed in the rulebook
I find these two comments in context of this conversation wildly hypocritical because both riders have received the same recorded warning as CB.
We need to understand that these are people. Receiving a yellow card or a warning doesn’t mean they’re abusive or lack a moral compass, it’s just a reminder that we are all human beings who are less than perfect.
I listened to WFP’s interview from March 2025 on the Jon and Rick show. Talking about the LA Olympics. I guess there’s some talk about running cross country last? WFP was plain spoken about how SJ serves as a handbrake to ensure you try to come out of CC with a sound horse, one that can pass inspection to go onto the last phase.
Ahh yes, unfortunately, riders making the choice to not pull up is not shocking to me. The ground jury not pulling him up was a shock to me due to how the round was going. So that was my actual concern as to how bad does it have to be to get pulled up?
