THIS..... This is what will kill eventing

[kt]

@Marigold

That being said, I think there are some rose coloured glasses on here. Someone upthread commented that they were surprised that Michael Jung seemed to thrilled with Calvin at the finish, and in the comment I’ve quoted here you said Adelaide made the scary riders in Kentucky “look like Michael Jung”. But I think we forget that Michael Jung didn’t always ride like Michael Jung. In fact, when he was younger, he rode quite a lot like Calvin. In a COTH Kentucky review that I cannot find for the life of me, Jimmy Wofford commented that Michael got to the top of the last hill at Kentucky with fischerRocana, threw the reins at her, and “if he had missed even once, we would still be scraping him up off the floor”. But he didn’t, so he won.

So there is this column here from Wofford from 2016 where he discussed what you’re mentioning (and I remember this well too!). Except below:

Then you have someone like Michael Jung who show jumps at the five-stars for show jumping and rides Grand Prix dressage and then comes out here in horrible conditions and puts his hands down and says, “I’m going to win this or die,” and Roxie flung her ears up and said, “Really? How cool is that; let’s go see what happens.”

I was watching in the TV production truck with all of these experts, and we all started groaning at the top of the hill because we knew what he was going to do. He was going to chase the time down through a related distance to a flat ramped oxer at the end, and he was going to hope he sees three fliers in a row. And he did. And if he had not seen those strides, and if she had not responded, they would still be picking him up.

He’s very confident in his horse, and he wouldn’t have asked for that if he didn’t know it was there in her. She just put her ears up and said, “Do you want to leave from 15 feet back at the last fence when we’re tired? Let’s see if that works.”

But then in his 2017 recap, he also talked about how scrappy Jung had to be that year:

Michael Jung, I have never seen him have such a sketchy round. There were 44 efforts, and easily 25 percent of them it could have gone wrong. Roxie is just wonderful.

I can’t explain it. He just did not have a good day, and he said as much in the post-ride interview. I love that about him; he’s very matter-of-fact about, “My horse really saved me,” or, “Well, it was just not our day, and we got it done, and I’m happy for her. She’s a wonderful horse.” That’s all true.

[Marigold]

@kt

So there is this column here from Wofford from 2016 where he discussed what you’re mentioning (and I remember this well too!).

You are officially better at the internet than me. I have looked for that article a few times over the years and it always eluded me. Thank you!

[Live_Wire]

It’s hard for me to organize my thoughts to respond to this (in my perspective) but I’ll give it a go.

The course did jump well with 30% of the field going double clear. That’s pretty average, maybe slightly under average, for an event of this caliber on a synthetic surface. Time seemed to be a little more difficult than the course itself - I think we’ll see that more often moving forward in this phase of eventing.

FWIW the majority of the double clears were foreign riders. Three were US pairs.

Post cross country care consists of pushing fluids to replenish their bodies. Combined with other modalities, most do recover well for Stadium.

For every group of riders on course, at least one always looked flat out and fatigued to me. I’ve seen a lot of horses filter through the vet box over the years, and this was just a tired group coming home. The Kentucky terrain is not unfamiliar territory to the majority of these riders so it surprised me that so many were underprepared. I think the increased technicality of cross country is a major factor. Not surprising the Brits seemed to fair pretty well. It makes me wonder where the disconnect is.

[moatsngoats]

I don’t think she did. She’s saying if there were an incentive for barrel racers to keep going after a fall, they very likely would do it. But because it’s a very quick, timed event, there’s no incentive to keep going after a fall or allow it in the sport - you wouldn’t get 7th (which is where Calvin ended up) if your horse fell. And, you aren’t halfway through a miles long, minutes long endeavor. You’ll likely race again the same or the next day.

Not agreeing or disagreeing just pointing out that she understood you, and disagreed.

[moatsngoats]

very well said.

[sheltona01]

The ground was so soft this year due to all of the rain. I am sure that had something to do with the tired horses coming home.

[FrittSkritt]

The difference at Adelaide is that many of these riders ride like a sack of potatoes. They’re of balance, arms flying, legs all over the place. I’ll probably get lots of hate from the Aussie contingent on here, but the caliber of riding is not so much “scrappy” and “forward,” but dangerously out of balance and lucky.

Equitation is not a thing here. I’m not saying you need to ride a round like it’s a Medal class, but some semblance of strength and balance is needed at the UL that’s not taught at the lower levels. When your stirrups are too long and you can’t hold yourself up in the saddle when your horse pecks on landing, you have clear holes in your foundation that need to be fixed. Unfortunately that’s not something they acknowledge here.

[Live_Wire]

By the 5* the footing actually wasn’t too bad. Of course you stud accordingly, but it shouldn’t have caused that widespread of fatigue. That’s considered in a conditioning program.

[EventerAJ]

Agreed. It was also a cool, overcast day that is easy weather on fit horses.

If the horses were fit.

I don’t think horses are conditioned as well as they could be, in some upper level programs. Similar to modern stakes horse racing, where it seems “less is more” in the sense of preserving the very best of a horse’s soundness. It’s my theory that they are ridden less miles than they should be to have adequate fitness for the upper levels. Not all horses will stay sound in a rigorous conditioning program…just as not all horses should be going 5*. 5* isn’t just about jumping big ass fences, it’s being fit enough to gallop 570+mpm for miles with ears pricked AND stay sound, after months of proper conditioning.

[Aussie_2020]

Are they thinking they can ride like the Man from Snowy River?

[M1ssmouse]

The GJ were a disgrace not pulling that rider up, the round was haphazard before the fall. I was also concerned at the speed of CP in the 5 star, the commentators did say that’s how the horse likes to run but I think they were second guessing what the viewers were thinking

[Ghazzu]

@EventerAJ

I don’t think horses are conditioned as well as they could be

Looking back at the old days of roads and tracks and steeplechase, they’re probably not.
I know that’s in the past, but damn, those horses were fit.

[enjoytheride]

Don’t forget that anyone conditioning is likely doing so in FL (maybe SC?), we could barely ride outside all winter and spring here in the Midwest, it was a rough year. They are conditioning and competing on much different ground.

[Marigold]

@Live_Wire

Not surprising the Brits seemed to fair pretty well. It makes me wonder where the disconnect is.

I don’t disagree with the majority of your post, but a small note to point out that the Brits in the Kentucky field were amongst the best of the Brits - that’s why it’s worth it for them to put a horse (or two) on a plane. The best of the Americans were good for fitness, too, for an apples-to-apples comparison. But I agree with your broader point.

[DLee1]

Highly recommend listening to the podcast from EN with Sinead talking about Kentucky and what went on. It’s very good.

[dmveventer]

Was just coming here to recommend this. I really like the way Sally is handling this podcast in general, she does a good job of addressing issues head on while still being fair to the sport and the individual people involved.

[FitToBeTied]

A few years ago the same discussion came up after Kentucky. One of things I will point out that even in the events leading up to kentucky, very few riders were making the time in those early season events. People will always point out that it’s early season, the horses aren’t fit yet, etc. Then we get to kentucky and horses still aren’t making the time. Yet, looking back to the early days, it was not common but not unusual for a horse to make the time.

So what is different?

First, the long format is gone, never to return. You really couldn’t run a warmblood back then and really expect to be competitive. So the horse competing has change.

More significant than that is what happens in the offseason. Part of the problem is that there is no off season anymore. Horses head south to SC, FLA, GA, etc. They do dressage, jumpers, etc. What they don’t do is add a real base of training for endurance. When I started fox hunting several decades ago, it was common to see upper level horses out in the hunt field in Virginia. Horses were out for hours at a time dealing with all kinds of terrain. Now they are in the south where it is sandy ring like footing and flat.

Every winter I take my horses for a week or so to Aiken to hunt. They are hunting fit and find the flat sandy conditions pretty easy. They can run for a long time. So while the weather is nicer down there in the winter, I don’t think it matters how long you run on flat ground when it comes to dealing with terrain on a 5* course.

I think it was Wofford who said that a horse that was first flight hunting once a week, would be fit enough to run a 5* event course.

So while it is nice to be down south in the winter, maybe it is not the best preparation for running a 5* when it comes to conditioning.

[eventingFool]

I think another consideration as to why so few people make time in 5* courses (it’s not just Kentucky, and it’s not just american based riders) is that the courses have become a lot more technical, with the need to show jumping speed at times in order to succesfully navigate through a combination. All this change of pace makes it really hard to make up in the now shorter thab before gallop stretches.

[frugalannie]

I seem to remember that some years ago when there were safety concerns, one of the “fixes” was to make time more influential, and to design courses that would result in at least some time penalties for the majority (if not all ) of the riders. However, this might be a fever dream.

[OverandOnward]

@frugalannie

I seem to remember that some years ago when there were safety concerns, one of the “fixes” was to make time more influential, and to design courses that would result in at least some time penalties for the majority (if not all ) of the riders. However, this might be a fever dream.

Back in the aughts (200x’s) there were huge safety concerns after a short spate of tragedies. How optimum times were set got a hard look, all across UL eventing.

David O’Connor led a study that placed volunteers at certain key points on the course to record the exact time each competitor crossed that point. This gave him data on when riders/horses were faster, and when slower, and basically their strategy to make time. That was a long time ago, but some of those time captures are still being done.

Another highlighted issue was how the course was being measured to set an optimum time. There were a lot of complaints of inaccuracy. Especially a course being measured as shorter than it rode. Creating a bias to a time that required speeds exceeding the specs for the level to make.

I think today people are looking at optimum time, and making the time, in different ways. But some of these perspectives may still be a topic.