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THIS..... This is what will kill eventing

Eventing
#345

There were a few years in the aughts and early 10’s that I followed courses, optimum times, and results closely, to learn more about UL eventing.

Will make this statement: The setting of the optimum time can influence the ultimate winner in a 5*. A very tight time that few riders will make, of course adds penalty points to all of the scores that don’t make it. Depending on how the time penalties fall, enough time penalties among the top of the rankings can end up offsetting very good dressage scores.

There were periods in 4*-now-5* eventing when only five or so riders would make the time. To the point where several top riders would not be trying to make time, but rather simply be doing their best to minimize the time penalties, and rely more on dressage and clean show jumping.

On the other hand, an event where a larger percentage of the field makes the optimum time thereby elevates the influence of dressage and show jumping.

I am not talking about several riders having fewer than 4 time penalty points. Rather, even top riders accumulating time penalties that can significantly alter the rankings. Or conversely, most of the top dressage rankings make the time on xc, and then time doesn’t have much influence on the rankings.

There was controversy at one period (quite some time ago) with claims that European events were minimizing the time element, to maximize the dressage influence, thereby selling more of their not-so-fast warmbloods. Don’t know how valid that was. But there was firm belief in the theory by some influential people. Rules changes helped put cross-country optimum time more firmly back in the mix.

On the other hand, tight optimum times increase riders flying over the galloping stretches and then the big gear-down for the obstacles. Only to power back up again between obstacles. If the rider wants the best possible placing at the end.

It’s all about the math. And the discretion of whoever sets the optimum time for a given event. Hope this makes sense.

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#346

@RAyers was in charge of a speed study in mid 00s. I remember wearing a GPS speed watch riding xc at Maui Jim Wayne. IIRC, the data was shocking… riders reaching fast speeds (>650mpm at prelim?) on gallop stretches trying to make up time. A lot of work went into the study, but the results were not used as effectively as they could have been.

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#347

Yes. To echo @EventerAJ, we did several years of having riders wear GPS watches. I have data from novice all the way to Rolex and the PanAms. We presented this data at the USEA convention in 2008?

Back then we wanted to learn if the speed was the issue in the accidents to which the answer was “no.”

One thing to note is that no horse/rider jumped any jump faster than 450mpm. That told us balance was key. Michael Jung was the best with being in that range consistently. Bruce Davidson was a master at managing speed between fences consistently.

Another thing we found was that as horses tired, their speed varied rather than just slowed. At the same time the more combinations, the more the variation. That did lead to the concept that the average distance between obstacles could be no less than 140 meters to give the horses a chance to “recover.”

But this is all moot now. The sport is entirely different. The distances are shorter and the fences less massive with the courses much more technical.

One thing for the casual observer is when figuring out the time on course, each fence takes about a second to jump so on a 40 fences course you are already 40 seconds down on time. Thus, the speed between fences must compensate. In my experience, I never exceeded 880mpm between fences at the 3-star level.

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#348

I’m just amazed at the proportions of some of the jumps. I don’t have a diagram in front of me, but it seems like some of the skinny jumps are only about 3 feet or so wide between the flags, but very long front to back.

So they require pretty much pinpoint accuracy from the horse and rider, both laterally and longitudinally. Even at a gallop.

2 Likes
#349

I initially had a problem with the transition to so many skinnes on the modern courses, partly because of this. It seemed more like an accuracy test than a XC test. Although I believe it was someone here on COTH who explained to me how much safer that is, which I can now appreciate. If a combination gets in trouble coming to these accuracy questions, the horse just glances off. Even if the horse tries to jump from a dangerous spot, the jumps are so narrow that their body can’t really get hung up to rotate without some sort of perfect storm of flukey events occuring.

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#350

It would be interesting to me to see if the lack of fitness stems from an increasing number spending the winter and early spring in Florida and Aiken, where the hills/footing do not match what you see at Kentucky and Fair Hill.

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#351

And to that point, more limited space (at least in Ocala). Most barns in Ocala operate with somewhat limited space so you may have to seek out a track (I know some UL have access to one), haul out, do endless sets in the same jump field or add in some alternative options (swimming, treadmill, aquatread - all of which we luckily have good access to). Makes me curious about places where they may have much more space to ride out and condition, even disregarding the valid point of terrain. I know my trot sets around our field are like light torture to my ADHD brain. I look longingly at some of the big fields at TB farms I drive by on my way to the barn.
Still better than the arena circles I did as a loper for a cow horse trainer :laughing:

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#352

Here in the Midwest there is NO WAY to get the fitness you need to be ready for an April show like that. We could barely even ride outside in March on groomed arenas. Most eventers at that level who are normally based in the midwest/cold areas winter somewhere south.

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#353

After reading all 348 posts on this thread, I have decided that what will actually kill eventing is ClipMyHorseTV.

60 Likes
#354

That’s a real possibility. However, the rider who received a yellow card in Kentucky does not go south to my knowledge. :woman_shrugging:t4:

1 Like
#355

I just looked it up and Boyd Martin seems to spend time in Aiken every winter.

I also keep wondering about this idea that Warmbloods are just not a capable of being as fit and it’s a bit difficult to find the breeding of the top event horses easily but I found the USEF hall of fame:

Biko - TB/Irish Draught
BallyCor - not listed (internet search seems an unraced TB)
Plain Sailing - “by an Irish stallion, out of an Irish mare” (I’m thinking not TB since other TB’s are mentioned by breed)
The Grasshopper - not listed
Jenny camp - by “famous TB stallion” out of “mare though to be TB/Standardbred”
Eagle Lion - out of “Stream Lion” by TB stallion - Dam listed as Irish Sport Horse on Wikipedia
Out and About - TB
Winsome Adante - not listed listed as " (84.5% TB, 9.5% Arabian, and 6% Irish)
Molokai - TB
McKinlaigh - “Highland King x Kilcumney Hostess”
The Gray Goose - “seven eigths bred Irish horse”
Giltedge - not listed (listed as Irish Sport horse in Wikipedia with a full TB GRAND sire)
Irish Cap - not listed
Custom Made - Irish Sport Horse
Kilkenny - not listed

I think I missed one on the hall of fame but overall it does not look like full TBs dominated the sport. I bet most of those cavalry horses that dominated the really early days had all kinds of unknown breeding.

I think time faults have more to do with the current structure of the cross country course and tired horses have more to do with how individuals prep their horses for the event.

Also, keep in mind, increasing technology means we watch far more rounds than previously. ON TV, and even in DVD high lights, the best are viewed and the relative joe schmoe (ie-Calvin) would have likely not made the cut unless he won his first ever try at a 5*.

1 Like
#356

Yes. Plus the facility where he goes in Aiken is huge, with tons of space, several big rings, the covered ring, and a gazillion cross country jumps of all types.

So I would think he should be able to get his horses pretty fit there, although the terrain might be a little flatter than at some of the spring competitions.

2 Likes
#357

Even some of our (US) big name riders seemed a little underprepared.

Speaking to the fitness - I don’t think location is a good enough excuse. Tamie has disproved that idea over and over again. PD’s horses were no worse for the wear in the 4* - he winters in Wellington. Winter and spring is brutal overseas. Tom and Harry don’t even have an indoor to work out of. Those guys are more committed than I’ll ever be.

I listened to the podcast a few times. At one point Sinead referenced The Principles of Training with a bit of a twist on how riders should have the tools in their toolbox. To further spinoff that thought - these horses are developed methodically and with purpose. I can only speak to my experience on an UL path, but there were oftentimes we were jumping out of stride and deliberately encouraging the horse to think independently in case we got in a pickle. Ultimately, you don’t want to be in that situation, and I am glad the safety culture is on the forefront, but I think that remains an important tool to have in the toolbox at all levels because sometimes stuff just happens.

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#358

This is the link for the podcast, which I think is #6.

They get to the discussion of the horse semi-fall at Kentucky around the 25:00 mark.

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#359

Forgive the pedigree geek in me… ALL these icons of our sport have some or most of their pedigrees listed online.

Sporthorse-data.com is a FABULOUS resource and I have used it a bunch. MOST good/well known horses are in there.

Em

ETA: The website even includes my own good jumper “Cudo” aka “El Cuador” :wink:

9 Likes
#360

A little update.

Dam line of The Gray Goose is a good old mystery. I have talked to Kim and here’s what I know.

This reflects his sire line and unknown status of his dam.

But she was told that the dam was 3/4 Tb and that there were comments made around his behavior that cited “That’s got to be the Bold Ruler in him!”

So his original name was “Brilliant Tarquin” sired by “Hill Tarquin” and born in 1970 in County Clare Ireland or therabouts.

https://beta.allbreedpedigree.com/the-gray-goose-PXUtukZO/pedigree

https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/gray-goose

I have some friends in Ireland and the way that the Irish revere the great ones… I may ask around a bit and see if any pieces of his story live on with relatives of folks that knew him.

Em

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#361

Thanks for adding the links and breeding, @Xctrygirl!

In answer to the idea that non-TBs couldn’t make the time “back in the day”, by which I am referencing the 70s, 80s (i.e. long after army remounts) - the grain of truth is that the TB had a huge influence, just as they do today. But the fields were far from dominated by pure TBs. From what I have gleaned over decades of reading everything I ever could on eventing, including many contemporary publications from the 70s and 80s, horse breeds at top events were a mixed bag along the following lines:

The Irish and Brits rode between 1/2 to 7/8 TB, usually Irish crosses but often with some native pony, cob, or draught blood.

The Europeans and Russians were riding mostly hot-bloods including Trakehners, Selle Francais, Anglo-Arab, as well as eastern european TB and TB/WB cross. And they’d happily buy Irish crosses out of Ireland or from other riders.

North American riders were on a mixture of TB, TB/QH crosses (including racing Appaloosas), and the luckier ones would import from Ireland, the UK, or pick up an Australia/NZ horse that wasn’t going home.

Many of the Australian and NZ horses were TB, but they also had “station-breds” which were 1/2 to 7/8 TB. Charisma, the 1984 and 1988 Olympic champion, was 7/8 TB and 1/8 Percheron.

Central and South American teams as well as the Japanese seemed to be on locally bred horses, TBs and high% TB crosses.

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#362

Fitness and soundness have a huge correlation. The horses that can stay the soundest, also get the fittest. In reverse a horse that might struggle with soundness will be harder to get fit if the rider has to choose rehab over fitness work, or skip a gallop to keep them feeling their best. It is easy just to look at top horses that consistently perform and always make the time and ignore the huge amount of wastage that piles up along the way.

Two examples that come to mind. Classic Moet winning a 5star at 18, an incredibly sound horse that stood up to maintaining that level of fitness year in and year out.

Off the Record. I hazard a guess that part of the reason he didn’t run the 5star is he doesn’t stay sound with the amount of galloping required to become 5star fit. Hence Will making the (smart) decision to “let him tell us what he wants to do” and only run the 4short.

I think most riders don’t have a fitness problem with their program, they have a soundest problem with their program.

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#363

I don’t think that’s fair. Will’s been pretty open in interviews that the 5 stars have always been kind of a stretch for this horse, the 4*/championship level is really where he shines. Now that he’s older they don’t see a reason to push him. With how tough the Kentucky 4* has been I’m not sure there’s actually a huge gap in the required fitness.

You’re still looking at a 16 year old that’s sound and happy performing his job to a very high level, which I think says a lot about the management and overall program.

16 Likes
#364

I think we are getting to the same result saying it different ways. Just asking the question of why the 5 star is a stretch? Idk I am not in his program, clearly he is making the right decision for the horse. The difference in fitness comes from 7 min of galloping vs 11 min. And its not necessarily the fitness on the day thats the difference, its the miles on the legs required to get ready to gallop for 11 min vs gallop for 7 min.

9 Likes

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