This weeks COTH

[JP60]

But to say that after 12 years that it is SHOCKING to not have a visa renewed, or that your world class, privileged, daughter is now stuck in Europe because the entire operation will fall apart without this [I]one person to run the show?

Sorry, that just sounds ridiculously entitled and spoiled. Mr Kessler said he has spent tens of thousands of dollars fighting the visa denial. Tens of thousands of dollars.[/I]

KayBee, I think you both make valid points and it just goes to show that this is not a clear issue. In general I tend to lean more with ACME’s viewpoint.

I associated the ‘shocking’ stance to reflect Mr Kessler’s position, not so much yours. If he was spending 10s of thousands of dollars, just to get this groom back, then he wasted time and money solving the problem. Like ACME, I would consider the idea of what happens when one day, your right hand groom is not there any more. Let’s not look at the extreme (car wreck), but even just the “I don’t want to work for you any more” position. No one is irreplaceable. Mr. Kessler could have spend some of that time interviewing potential candidates, even while the groom was there; never hurts to have backs ups. He could have spent some of the 10 of thousands on training potential backups or, barring any US solution, heading over to EU and trying to get a new groom in place. I feel he directed his energy in the wrong direction.

Oh well, they’re disposable, let’s just train up a working student? That seems odd to me.

I didn’t get that from the post. Whether or not you have the perfect collection of parts, at some point those parts may go away and you need to be ready to replace them. It is not about the value of a good employee, it is about what happens when that valued employee is not there any more. Bottom line, Mr. Kessler, and by extension a little, Reed, did not do good planning as a business. They want to blame the USCIS without looking at their own lack of business responsibility. He used the example of a good crew chief or caddie, but crew chiefs leave for other teams, caddies quit (or get fired), so the only difference here is that his crew chief was essentially deported. Deal with it.

To be clear, I have nothing against the Visa program (except H1B for different reasons) and bringing people in from other places.

However…

Instead of the HCA, USEA, USEF, Mr. Kessler, the Lawyer all working so hard to change the government to allow people to stay (or come in), they first look at trying to make being a groom an important role in this country. Maybe it is not a profession as such, but with certifications, standards of some kind, training, financial support it could be possible that we could get a good crop of younger people to step into and fill in the role being vacated by foreign personnel. Mr. Kessler, take those dollars, find a potential candidate, and send them to the EU for training and see what happens. You’ll get more bang for the buck than tossing money at our mind-numbed government.

It is time for the US equine industry to get creative and not so stuck on the notion that the only place to get good help is overseas.

[simc24]

@ACMEeventing;7697358

But to say that after 12 years that it is SHOCKING to not have a visa renewed, or that your world class, privileged, daughter is now stuck in Europe because the entire operation will fall apart without this one person to run the show?

Sorry, that just sounds ridiculously entitled and spoiled. Mr Kessler said he has spent tens of thousands of dollars fighting the visa denial. Tens of thousands of dollars.

So if this mission essential groom had been in a car wreck the entire Reed Kessler career would have come to a grinding halt? Obviously she is an amazing addition to their team, I get it. But c’mon, it seems extreme to be playing the victim card.

This was my exact thought. I get that a good employee is valuable, blah blah blah (and I say that as a mid level manager at a very large company- I do get it) But seriously, they can’t find one single American that can be a great head groom for Reed Kessler? And now she’s stuck in Europe because her groom can’t come home with her? That is ridiculous.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=simc24;7697588]
This was my exact thought. I get that a good employee is valuable, blah blah blah (and I say that as a mid level manager at a very large company- I do get it) But seriously, they can’t find one single American that can be a great head groom for Reed Kessler? And now she’s stuck in Europe because her groom can’t come home with her? That is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

I’d imagine there’s a more personal relationship between groom/rider than there is in the corporate world. And, really, I don’t know how many top grooms there are. What do you do, poach one from an existing rider? That’s probably Not Done. If other riders are resorting to hiring from Europe, I’d say you’re looking at a pretty small pool of people with the decade or so of experience that Reed’s current groom has.

Again, I can’t speak to this from experience, but I do think that when you have owners who are shelling out tens of thousands or more to support your horses, you want to be sure that their, and your, investment is protected. There are a lot of aspects to grooming that don’t have analogues in the “real” world.

The Reed Kessler story is just one of apparently a few hundred stories, and maybe she’s fighting not to just lose a valued employee, but also to maybe get immigration to reevaluate the situation. Who knows?

But I’d hate for that example to be the one everyone points to and says “oh, they’re just whining.” I think it’s a bit of a bigger deal, both from the riders’s perspective and the groom who is being affected by what seems to be a very different approach to work visas.

[JP60]

Such Timing is Life

did a rare stroll around the COTH web site, found this article

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/so-you-want-be-groom

A very good read. It also told me that in one way, Kaybee’s view has merit. Getting a good groom (and keeping one) is not so simple. But it also indicates that there is the potential for a job market in the US, but only if the Kessler’s, and Equine Organizations of the US work to make it happen.

I don’t think, after reading this, that Groom is the proper job title. Team Manager or Team Coordinator, Equine Manager, there is a lot more asked then making the horse pretty.

My SO is a groom (well when she’s not watching the advanced riders). She makes my horse pretty, makes me reasonable handsome, and generally supports my effort by hold the lead line at times. Whatever those folks do for UL teams, it ain’t just making sure Reed gets to the ring on time.

[jen-s]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;7697358]
I have to reply to this. Paying taxes while on a work visa is not “brownie points” for a renewal, it is the expectation and standard. Obviously people in the country illegally are not paying taxes and that is a constant drain on the rest of contributing society. To use that as an argument for perceived unfair treatment of foreign employees is illogical.[/QUOTE]

This is probably the first time that I’ve ever disagreed with Acme on anything. Go figure. Bolding mine.

Many people here illegally ARE paying taxes. Unfortunately (and I am NOT condoning this), some/many will use fradulent SSNs which means they are getting payroll taxes deducted (income, SS, Medicare, etc)—none of which they will see a penny of. In addition, they are paying sales taxes, gasoline taxes, property or vehicle taxes, etc. Someone here on a Visa will receive a SSN, btw. There SS card looks just a bit different than a “normal” one.

I have my own very strong views on how we need to reform immigration that I won’t bore y’all with, but I do think it’s important to note than many, many people (illegal or on a visa) pay into our system without any expectation of receiving anything back from that particular tax (ie. no Social Security at retirement or no Medicare).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Well…I’m someone who is for open boarders. As an employer…I want the best person for the job, regardless of where they are from or if they are a citizen. I want to keep criminals and scum out of my country…but anyone else who wants to come and work, and pay taxes…even work here indefinately, is more than welcome. Since I struggle to find good people (and know many who also struggle)–I’m personally not worried about “saving” a job for the other Americans. I’m a believer in competition and the best employee getting the job.

Getting a green card or long term working visa to me should NOT be hard. Getting citizenship…that should be very hard.

But this is just my own view that has evolved over the years of tying to get good people. And good hard workers are HARD to find, even when you pay well. I do know several people on these visas. Some are trying to get permament green cards, but it isn’t something easy to accomplish unless you are working for a large international corporation, and even then, still not easy.

I’m a big believer in what makes this country strong are people immigrating here from all over the world. It is what has made us strong in the past–and what I think can continue to make us strong in the future. But I know this isn’t a popular view…

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7697732]
I struggle to find good people (and know many who also struggle)–I’m personally not worried about “saving” a job for the other Americans.[/QUOTE]

Re: this struggle: I have heard this story over and over from many a barn owner (in person). And I also remember one Fourth of July when my cousin was talking to a contractor friend of his and he said something about “hiring all the Mexicans” (yes, cousin’s obnoxious shorthand for illegal) and contractor guy was all “yeah, because they SHOW UP.”

Good horse help does seem to be hard to find. There are those who, despite being told repeatedly, do not seem to understand the importance of fresh clean water in a paddock. This I have seen. And that’s at the less demanding “I am looking for people to pick stalls, turnout, and feed/water” end of the scale.

And, yes, Jen-S, re many illegal immigrants paying into the system.

Also, I get a little cranky about everyone complaining about people who come to the U.S. to work illegally. They are able to do that because business owners HIRE THEM. If business owners didn’t break the law, not so many people would do it…

@JP60;7697722

I don’t think, after reading this, that Groom is the proper job title. Team Manager or Team Coordinator, Equine Manager, there is a lot more asked then making the horse pretty.

This is a good point. Maybe they do need to make the name seem more “serious.” Call them VP of Equine Management or something and maybe Immigration wouldn’t think “what the hell do we need to hire people from Europe to brush horses for?”

[ACMEeventing]

@jen-s;7697725

This is probably the first time that I’ve ever disagreed with Acme on anything. Go figure. Bolding mine.

Many people here illegally ARE paying taxes. Unfortunately (and I am NOT condoning this), some/many will use fradulent SSNs which means they are getting payroll taxes deducted (income, SS, Medicare, etc)—none of which they will see a .[/QUOTE]

Not sure how to respond to that. Good, that they’re paying taxes. But, BAD that it involves fraudulent SSN’s. Kind of a “do two wrongs make a right” sort of thing.The disaster that is our income tax system is definitely it’s own thread. But thank you for correcting me

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7697732]Well…I’m someone who is for open boarders. As an employer…I want the best person for the job, regardless of where they are from or if they are a citizen. I want to keep criminals and scum out of my country…but anyone else who wants to come and work, and pay taxes…even work here indefinately, is more than welcome. Since I struggle to find good people (and know many who also struggle)–I’m personally not worried about “saving” a job for the other Americans. I’m a believer in competition and the best employee getting the job.

Getting a green card or long term working visa to me should NOT be hard. Getting citizenship…that should be very hard.

I agree. My point was really in regard to the article; that there is this outcry and call for action over a system functioning exactly as it is written. If you know the rules going into it, you can’t act surprised if someone decides to enforce them, and the “but we’ve always been able to before” is unfortunately not going to change the outcome.

I’m not a heartless bastard, truly I’m not. I feel horrible for what these international workers are having to go through, especially because it sounds like they weren’t given much notice, but it is an inherent risk of being here on a temporary visa.

[QUOTE=KayBee;7697859]
This is a good point. Maybe they do need to make the name seem more “serious.” Call them VP of Equine Management or something and maybe Immigration wouldn’t think “what the hell do we need to hire people from Europe to brush horses for?”[/QUOTE]

Until the job description is understood by TPTB to be at least on par with being a top model (snort), then these experiences will multiply.

And the “shocking” was in response to the article, not to your post.

[retreadeventer]

I currently do not work in the horse industry and I should but my mid level job pays more than a groom’s job. I love managing horses and would make a great “equine manager” for someone. But I can’t live on the pay.
So if they want to hire illegals go ahead. But eventually the whole thing is going to implode and they’ll have to cough up more dough to hire a better domestic legal American some how. They’re out there. They’re waiting for a living wage is all.
And don’t kid yourself about the tax payment thing. They cost PLENTY in infrastructure expense. Just ask your insurance company, especially auto insurers…

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;7697922]
I currently do not work in the horse industry and I should but my mid level job pays more than a groom’s job. I love managing horses and would make a great “equine manager” for someone. But I can’t live on the pay.
So if they want to hire illegals go ahead. But eventually the whole thing is going to implode and they’ll have to cough up more dough to hire a better domestic legal American some how. They’re out there. They’re waiting for a living wage is all.
And don’t kid yourself about the tax payment thing. They cost PLENTY in infrastructure expense. Just ask your insurance company, especially auto insurers…[/QUOTE]

Sure there are a lot of crappy jobs out there but I know that just a barn mucking grunt job around here pays $10-15 an hour (so 400-600 per week or 20K-31K per year). Many provide housing on top of that. Barn managers are generally getting 500-900 per week-- so between 25K-45K a year. Some also have benefits.

15+ years ago, I earned between 600-800 per week as a top level show groom with housing provided (I had to pay for my own health insurance). We were in high demand back then…I probably had a job offer a week from other farms trying to hire me away (more when we were in Florida).

No…not the sort of job that you will get rich doing (and certainly difficult to support a family) it but not the worst pay out there—espeically if housing is provided. Still…it can be hard to find good reliable employees that stick around long enough to earn a raise. Really hard as most do not want to do farm work.

[earthbound_soul]

No matter where you stand on the current immigration debate, it is laughable when you consider the 12 million illegal immigrants currently in the US that Mr Obama would like to give work visas.

No matter how you want to argue it, those 12 million have broken a major law and are criminals. Yet our government wants to reward them but is using questionable interpretations of their laws to punish the US equestrian sports community.

Makes you wonder if someone on a horse pissed off this administration.

[goodmorning]

I hate to say it, but there are plenty of political people involved directly in office or very close to those officials…and yes, they probably have pissed people off :lol: Ever hear ‘horse people are crooks’ / ‘crazy’ / & are known to have illegals regularly providing services from a non-horse person? Trainers across all disciplines haven’t done themselves any favors. And can the ones in office really put their nose out there for horse ‘people’ as a group? I can’t imagine that’s what a politicians PR person is going to suggest.

As she’s an easy target - do you think Mr.
Bloomberg would want/wanted any involvement in this discussion? Somewhere along the line there’s been an illegal involved somehow, it’d be all over the news, etc etc. some things are not asked about for good reason.

[jen-s]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;7697908]
Not sure how to respond to that. Good, that they’re paying taxes. But, BAD that it involves fraudulent SSN’s. Kind of a “do two wrongs make a right” sort of thing.The disaster that is our income tax system is definitely it’s own thread. But thank you for correcting me

I’m not a heartless bastard, truly I’m not. I feel horrible for what these international workers are having to go through, especially because it sounds like they weren’t given much notice, but it is an inherent risk of being here on a temporary visa. [/QUOTE]

LOL! I know you’re not heartless and I absolutely agree that two wrongs do not make a right.

However, for legitimate or semi-legitimate work, an undocumented worker must provide a SSN. There are endless channels to get them (did you know that SSNs only sell for about 50 cents these days–I read that this spring after one of the big hacks), but the worst of all, IMHO, are the businesses who employ people specifically to help with this. Whether they are a slaughter house or a meat packing/processing plant or a farming group, this sort of underhanded dealings should be dealt with very severely.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7697950]
Sure there are a lot of crappy jobs out there but I know that just a barn mucking grunt job around here pays $10-15 an hour (so 400-600 per week or 20K-31K per year). Many provide housing on top of that. Barn managers are generally getting 500-900 per week-- so between 25K-45K a year. Some also have benefits.

15+ years ago, I earned between 600-800 per week as a top level show groom with housing provided (I had to pay for my own health insurance). We were in high demand back then…I probably had a job offer a week from other farms trying to hire me away (more when we were in Florida).[/QUOTE]

I really like horses, being around them, and enjoy the physical aspect of the labor. But those wages? Yikes. Not at all appealing, especially considering the hours involved. Granted, I live in the NYC area and living on that amount would be… interesting. Even if housing was included. In other areas of the country, though, maybe that looks more livable? Can’t be sure…

Too old now to make a move and find out, though

[earthbound_soul]

As a CPA who has spent many hours auditing corporate payroll taxes I can say that using invalid SSNs to pay will end up biting the company in the ass and bring the IRS down on ALL their books. It’s a red flag that any smart company would choose not to raise.
They either A) choose not to employ anyone that cannot get a green card or B) pay them in cash and hope no one tells

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=KayBee;7698703]
I really like horses, being around them, and enjoy the physical aspect of the labor. But those wages? Yikes. Not at all appealing, especially considering the hours involved. Granted, I live in the NYC area and living on that amount would be… interesting. Even if housing was included. In other areas of the country, though, maybe that looks more livable? Can’t be sure…

Too old now to make a move and find out, though ;-)[/QUOTE]

No way you could live on it in NYC area. But those are the current wages only as I know them…and remember…especially for farm managers, housing is provided and often so is board for a horse (and that is not included in that salary). In my case, I also give my barn manager flexibility to work other jobs, teach lessons and supplement income selling horses.

Most farm jobs that I ever worked…I always was working more than one job at a time (waiting tables, galloping horses, clipping)…you have to do other things to supplement your earnings…just like most people working less skilled jobs.

[Molly_Sorge]

Hi guys,

We’re really glad you appreciated the great content that we try so hard to deliver in each issue. We always struggle with the balance of putting magazine content out there available to all to promote our content with protecting our subscribers’ investment, since they’re paying us for the privilege of reading the content and we respect and appreciate that.

I hope this highlights the effort we’ve made in the past few years to really excel in delivering thoughtful, insightful and informative content in both our magazine pages and our website.

I would encourage you all to also make www.chronofhorse.com one of your regular stops (we post multiple stories a day that are separate from magazine content—from coverage of competitions to a series on inspiring amateur riders (you can nominate yourselves!) to insightful blogs from riders like Sinead Halpin, Amanda Steege, Katy Groesbeck, Megan Kepferle, the BB’s own Emily Pope, and so many more.

Each Monday, you can check out what’s in the print magazine issue here… http://www.chronofhorse.com/magazine. We’re really proud of the stories we’re putting in print and we’d love for you all to subscribe and enjoy it all.

Thanks! Molly Sorge

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;7697050]
I didn’t know anything about these visa and went to the USCIS web site to read about them.

So the P-1 (Athlete) has an initial max period of five years and an extension can be granted for another five. But the total is ten years. So, not knowing every case out there is it possible that these people are bumping up against the ten year limit.

In the O-1, which would cover grooms, the limit is three years and they can get a one year extension(s).

To be honest it seems to me that people are complaining that they can’t use what was intended to be a temporary visa as a defacto green card. When your temporary visa runs out and you want to be a permanent resident, then you are supposed to get a green card. Or at least that is my understanding of it but I am no an immigration attorney. The USCIS web site seems pretty clear.

If you want to see tough immigration standards for work visas try the UK and EU. It took my brother nine months to get a work visa for the UK and to put it mildly, he has a very rare skill set.

On the issue of qualified grooms in the US isn’t that really a rider business problem? If a rider is going to be a professional shouldn’t they expect to have training costs for their employees?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I was kind of feeling the same way…if you want a world where there is REALLY a serious shortage of high-qualified native-born pros, try ballroom. Especially on the coasts, where International style is the thing, most of the top pros were born elsewhere and almost everyone who represents the US internationally in the pro divisions is an immigrant. Emphasis on “immigrant”; with one exception at our studio, everyone had a green card at minimum and in the case of the owner a US passport. They moved here with the intent to stay and that meant eventually shifting off visa status to green card to citizen. The one teacher I knew who was on a visa is now a green card holder. Yes, it’s a long process (the teacher who’s a citizen now has been here almost fifteen years) but the work visas are not meant to be forever with indefinite renewal.

Yes, it SUCKS that these people played by the rules while God-knows-who low-skill/no-skill labor sneaks over the southern border and demand citizen-level rights and privileges without having contributed a thing while certain politicians hold them up as martyrs (and let’s not kid ourselves about where some of the low-skill labor in the horse world comes from-not really surprising USICS probably gives anything horse-related the side-eye.) But these are not meant to be permanent visas. It’s not US immigration’s fault that groom jobs don’t pay tons of money or that it’s “hard” to find people here willing to learn the job (perhaps if it’s such a hugely valuable skill people hiring grooms and working students should pay enough that they don’t have to drop when it a real job comes along if they ever want to do anything else with their lives.)

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7697950]
Sure there are a lot of crappy jobs out there but I know that just a barn mucking grunt job around here pays $10-15 an hour (so 400-600 per week or 20K-31K per year). Many provide housing on top of that. Barn managers are generally getting 500-900 per week-- so between 25K-45K a year. Some also have benefits.

15+ years ago, I earned between 600-800 per week as a top level show groom with housing provided (I had to pay for my own health insurance). We were in high demand back then…I probably had a job offer a week from other farms trying to hire me away (more when we were in Florida).

No…not the sort of job that you will get rich doing (and certainly difficult to support a family) it but not the worst pay out there—espeically if housing is provided. Still…it can be hard to find good reliable employees that stick around long enough to earn a raise. Really hard as most do not want to do farm work.[/QUOTE]

How many hours a week, though? I suspect saying 40 is underestimating. Time on the road? Health insurance? If it’s not included they have to buy it now (I’m looking now because my new employer only has two full-time employees and group isn’t feasible, and independent care has more than doubled in price since I had it two years ago.) How about paid time off? What does the “farm labor” include? Holidays? If accommodations are included, what exactly does that involve? Quality? What sort of utilities? $10/hour isn’t much to start with in most areas where these high-end barns are located. And if they’re importing workers for the better jobs, is there really that much chance for upward mobility? Even if you like a job or the work environment most people aren’t going to stick around indefinitely at $10-12 hour doing heavy labor with limited time off and benefits, especially when you see your employer bringing in ‘better qualified’ people for the top positions. Lack of promotion potential and backhanded “appreciation” like a nice card while they’re doing the barn work while you’re on Christmas vacation can sour a lot of people.

[BAC]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;7699207]
Hi guys,

We’re really glad you appreciated the great content that we try so hard to deliver in each issue. We always struggle with the balance of putting magazine content out there available to all to promote our content with protecting our subscribers’ investment, since they’re paying us for the privilege of reading the content and we respect and appreciate that.

I hope this highlights the effort we’ve made in the past few years to really excel in delivering thoughtful, insightful and informative content in both our magazine pages and our website.

I would encourage you all to also make www.chronofhorse.com one of your regular stops (we post multiple stories a day that are separate from magazine content—from coverage of competitions to a series on inspiring amateur riders (you can nominate yourselves!) to insightful blogs from riders like Sinead Halpin, Amanda Steege, Katy Groesbeck, Megan Kepferle, the BB’s own Emily Pope, and so many more.

Each Monday, you can check out what’s in the print magazine issue here… http://www.chronofhorse.com/magazine. We’re really proud of the stories we’re putting in print and we’d love for you all to subscribe and enjoy it all.

Thanks! Molly Sorge[/QUOTE]

I am a very long term subscriber who won’t be renewing, because I am tired of paying for what everyone else is getting for free. I had a discussion about it with a few friends because of this thread, and was not surprised that they feel the same way, and won’t be renewing either.