This weeks Coth has two great articles. One by the one and only Denny Emerson, about Fears and Falls. Great article. Especially for one who invariably got back on and finished the ride, and then spent months taking the highest dose permissable of NSAIDS. :rolleyes: Page 64
http://read.uberflip.com/i/354584
The second article about US Immigration is scary. It makes you worry for many of your friends. Page 72
http://read.uberflip.com/i/354584
My issue came today and I noticed both articles although I have not read them yet. I love reading anything by Denny!
Those articles are meant for COTH subscribers. I don’t think it is fair to post those links for people who are not paying for a subscription.
The second article on immigration – my mind is blown. Absolutely mind blown.
[QUOTE=BAC;7695511]
My issue came today and I noticed both articles although I have not read them yet. I love reading anything by Denny!
Those articles are meant for COTH subscribers. I don’t think it is fair to post those links for people who are not paying for a subscription.[/QUOTE]
I was hoping the individual articles would come up. And I am hoping that people will come to realize that the COTH has changed, and begin subscribing.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;7695736]
I was hoping the individual articles would come up. And I am hoping that people will come to realize that the COTH has changed, and begin subscribing.[/QUOTE]
That is not your decision to make about posting links to what others have to pay to read. COTH occasionally makes some of their articles available to everyone but it should be their decision, not yours.
[QUOTE=BAC;7695822]
That is not your decision to make about posting links to what others have to pay to read. COTH occasionally makes some of their articles available to everyone but it should be their decision, not yours.[/QUOTE]
I do agree COTH should make the decision but I also realize the OP is correct that the article needs to be read before people can discuss it.
I for one found the bias towards immigration annoying. When I worked in the industry for Olympic riders, I found the “British and European” is always better attitude irritating. The individual’s actual performance (or lack thereof) was immaterial they were cosseted and paid more. This attitude still exists. I can’t count the number of times I had to watch a Brit groom take a place that an American could do equally or even better. With the economy and job situation like it is now why are people surprised that the USA is trying to push USA employment? Yes, it is harder to find the person because of the size of the country but the numbers are here.
If someone loves working here so much, they need to either become a citizen or get over it when they don’t have their visa renewed multiple times. Why should we give preference to other country’s citizens when we have people that would like those jobs?
Sorry, but I’ve been there and done that and cannot condone the bias. The best in the world do fly over here and give clinics and the best then fly home. Yup, if they are Canadian, English, European, South American they’ve said it all by staying their nationality. We do not owe them ANYTHING; They’re own countries owe them support. We DO owe our younger generation an opportunity to be employed and become the greatest they can be.
And for those that wish to bash, I am a very proud daughter of a naturalized US citizen. I’m not against someone coming here but if they do, they need to WANT to be here, permanently.
[QUOTE=BAC;7695511]
Those articles are meant for COTH subscribers. I don’t think it is fair to post those links for people who are not paying for a subscription.[/QUOTE]
With all respect, I believe if COTH forums wanted to make it impossible to post COTH articles they probably “have the technology,” and would do that if it was was being abused.
However, this is also an opportunity for people who don’t subscribe to the magazine to see what they’re missing each week and decide to become a subscriber.
[QUOTE=flashwhitelock;7695869]
I do agree COTH should make the decision but I also realize the OP is correct that the article needs to be read before people can discuss it.
I for one found the bias towards immigration annoying. When I worked in the industry for Olympic riders, I found the “British and European” is always better attitude irritating. The individual’s actual performance (or lack thereof) was immaterial they were cosseted and paid more. This attitude still exists. I can’t count the number of times I had to watch a Brit groom take a place that an American could do equally or even better. With the economy and job situation like it is now why are people surprised that the USA is trying to push USA employment? Yes, it is harder to find the person because of the size of the country but the numbers are here.
If someone loves working here so much, they need to either become a citizen or get over it when they don’t have their visa renewed multiple times. Why should we give preference to other country’s citizens when we have people that would like those jobs?
Sorry, but I’ve been there and done that and cannot condone the bias. The best in the world do fly over here and give clinics and the best then fly home. Yup, if they are Canadian, English, European, South American they’ve said it all by staying their nationality. We do not owe them ANYTHING; They’re own countries owe them support. We DO owe our younger generation an opportunity to be employed and become the greatest they can be.
And for those that wish to bash, I am a very proud daughter of a naturalized US citizen. I’m not against someone coming here but if they do, they need to WANT to be here, permanently.[/QUOTE]
I don’t have issue with your point, but it can take many years to get citizenship or a green card, FWIW.
[QUOTE=flashwhitelock;7695869]
I do agree COTH should make the decision but I also realize the OP is correct that the article needs to be read before people can discuss it.
I for one found the bias towards immigration annoying. When I worked in the industry for Olympic riders, I found the “British and European” is always better attitude irritating. The individual’s actual performance (or lack thereof) was immaterial they were cosseted and paid more. This attitude still exists. I can’t count the number of times I had to watch a Brit groom take a place that an American could do equally or even better. With the economy and job situation like it is now why are people surprised that the USA is trying to push USA employment? Yes, it is harder to find the person because of the size of the country but the numbers are here.
If someone loves working here so much, they need to either become a citizen or get over it when they don’t have their visa renewed multiple times. Why should we give preference to other country’s citizens when we have people that would like those jobs?
Sorry, but I’ve been there and done that and cannot condone the bias. The best in the world do fly over here and give clinics and the best then fly home. Yup, if they are Canadian, English, European, South American they’ve said it all by staying their nationality. We do not owe them ANYTHING; They’re own countries owe them support. We DO owe our younger generation an opportunity to be employed and become the greatest they can be.
And for those that wish to bash, I am a very proud daughter of a naturalized US citizen. I’m not against someone coming here but if they do, they need to WANT to be here, permanently.[/QUOTE]
I thought that the (I believe) deliberate exclusion of anyone from Mexico or Columbia or <insert S. American country here> in the article to be quite disingenuous. That seemed to me to be the subtext of the entire article.
I would add to the OP’s post that this issue of COTH has THREE great articles, the third one being about a horsewoman who switched from hunter-jumper to dressage, and why. A sad article in a way, about the state of affairs in the hunter-jumper world, but a good positive statement about dressage. Particularly interesting to me, as I first learned in the hunter world a decade earlier than the writer of the article, back in the days when show hunters were actually hunters and went hunting when they weren’t showing!
As to the second story the OP posted, on immigration, that was a shocking read, very bad news. Yet I can’t help but wonder, if she had lived in the US for 12 years and no longer considered Britain home, why she never became a US citizen. Just wondering. I mean, you live in a country for 12 years, no longer consider your native land your home, yet you don’t want to become a citizen?
[QUOTE=Wellspotted;7696420]
As to the second story the OP posted, on immigration, that was a shocking read, very bad news. Yet I can’t help but wonder, if she had lived in the US for 12 years and no longer considered Britain home, why she never became a US citizen. Just wondering. I mean, you live in a country for 12 years, no longer consider your native land your home, yet you don’t want to become a citizen?[/QUOTE]
At the risk of being skewered, I have lived in the US for most of my life and I’m not a citizen. It is a hassle and expensive and affords me no benefits over my current status, other than voting rights (which is a fair trade-off for not having to serve jury duty 
)
[QUOTE=Wellspotted;7696420]
As to the second story the OP posted, on immigration, that was a shocking read, very bad news. Yet I can’t help but wonder, if she had lived in the US for 12 years and no longer considered Britain home, why she never became a US citizen. Just wondering. I mean, you live in a country for 12 years, no longer consider your native land your home, yet you don’t want to become a citizen?[/QUOTE]
I believe it would be exceedingly difficult to switch from having a NONIMMIGRANT status to successfully applying for citizenship–especially without leaving the country and starting the process from scratch. Unless you marry an American citizen, maybe–usually those folks get permanent resident status (‘green cards’) . Citizenship, as CD says, isn’t very compelling.
The people in the article have nonimmigrant visas. It seems to me that continually applying for those kinds of visas (P and O) and NOT having ties to you home country (which may or may not be the case for those in the article–just responding to Wellspotted here) would itself be a red flag to USCIS to simply renew their visas. It would look like they intend to stay in the US permanently.
(I posted similar on the cross-posted thread in OC–sorry for any cross-readings that make this repetitive)
On Visas
To be blunt, most Americans don’t tend to think of grooming as a career, whereas in Europe these people are well-respected professionals."
(Murray Kessler)
This article was multi-faceted in the presentation of a perceived problem. It ranges from the individual sad story to the sweeping issues of Immigration reform that is confounding this government (and country). In one way, it was almost too encompassing for the point got a little lost, but the quote above was one gem I found critical.
What is one big difference between Europe and the US outside of the overall focus of equestrians sports, healthcare and apprenticing. Being involved with an Austrian I’ve gotten to learn a bit about life in Austria (and the EU). First is the manner in which they handle healthcare for all people. Simply put, it is not a concern for citizens, because everyone pays. I’m not wanting to argue the good or bad of the details, but at its core, when someone works over in Europe they worry less about how to pay for healthcare for it is built into the system. It takes away the pressure of needing to make enough to afford Health Insurance, or working for companies that provide it. It allows for the opportunity of someone to make a career out of being a waitress, or hostess, or groom (all professions in the EU).
As I also learned, even what we see as the most basic jobs (cook, waitress) have schools, apprentice positions and pay growth based on experience. If one wants to be a professional waiter or waitress, a professional groom then they can opt to go to school, learn the standards, work as an apprentice then go on to make a career in that profession. In Europe (at least as I know from Austria), you can make more than a living wage as a waitress and gain status and pay along the way.
1 - How can one become a professional groom in the US when the costs of living may not allow a person the ability to establish one with major life sacrifices.
2 - How can one become a professional groom/trainer in the US when there is no established way to get training but “on the job” and that is the standard catch 22 of I need experience to work for Reed Kessler, but I can’t get experience because no one will hire me. The USEA has the ICP program (for trainers), but it is not widely accepted as yet (or enforced). For groomers it seems like it is the Pony Club or learn along the way.
3 - The equestrian community cannot help build a professional market for grooms since horses are not the focus in this country any more (other than racing). There is no money in Eventing at any level (but maybe the top and we know how small that is). Hunter Jumper has lots of money and perhaps one can find work there, but I figure it is just as difficult to maintain a “career” or lifestyle in that world.
What I found fascinating in reading this article was on one side, Top Eventers, lawyers, Equestrian organizations were working to fix “the problem” and allow visas to be renewed, but there was little, wait, NO talk of how to address the lack of grooms from our own country. Reed Kessler can’t come home because she can’t find a groom here in the US…well how about trying to fix that problem. I figure that will be easier to fix than changing the bureaucracy of the US government.
I personally think it sucks that these good people get kicked out of the country, because our government stinks at doings it job. We have a broken system for sure. On the other hand, now is the time and opportunity to try and build a core of grooming standards, to start to educate people from the US who want to do this type of work, and to show them that they can be part of something big if they go down that road. We’ve seen that the US is not 1st (gasp) in something so how about we try and learn, grow, and make it better here.
On COTH Articles
As a software developer I would state that COTH could lock down their online magazine if they choose too. Posting a link to an article on a subscription system is done all the time and in some instances they are very well locked down (NYT) and in others not (COTH).
My own take, allowing a link view in a forum such as this can do more to generate business than negatively affect it. Someone sees the eMag, likes it and get’s their own subscription, because they do find out that they can’t see other issues without paying. It is a teaser. Even the NYT will allow some articles to be viewed to draw in potential customers.
I use to get COTH, didn’t renew for most (like 90%) of the articles had little interest for me. However, in moments like this where I get to see what I miss, I get tempted again. SO, thank you for posting the links, I enjoyed Denny’s article, and found the immigration article extremely thought provoking.
I didn’t know anything about these visa and went to the USCIS web site to read about them.
So the P-1 (Athlete) has an initial max period of five years and an extension can be granted for another five. But the total is ten years. So, not knowing every case out there is it possible that these people are bumping up against the ten year limit.
In the O-1, which would cover grooms, the limit is three years and they can get a one year extension(s).
To be honest it seems to me that people are complaining that they can’t use what was intended to be a temporary visa as a defacto green card. When your temporary visa runs out and you want to be a permanent resident, then you are supposed to get a green card. Or at least that is my understanding of it but I am no an immigration attorney. The USCIS web site seems pretty clear.
If you want to see tough immigration standards for work visas try the UK and EU. It took my brother nine months to get a work visa for the UK and to put it mildly, he has a very rare skill set.
On the issue of qualified grooms in the US isn’t that really a rider business problem? If a rider is going to be a professional shouldn’t they expect to have training costs for their employees?
[QUOTE=BAC;7695511]
My issue came today and I noticed both articles although I have not read them yet. I love reading anything by Denny!
Those articles are meant for COTH subscribers. I don’t think it is fair to post those links for people who are not paying for a subscription.[/QUOTE]
This is actually the first time I have read COTH on-line and after seeing it in this post, I went over and subscribed. This might not be a bad idea to occasionally do this to generate interest in subbing.
Getting citizenship, even if you are married to an American, can be a long, difficult, EXPENSIVE process. Part of that is getting an employer to sponsor you, which is also a very difficult thing. And then there are the attorney fees, which are not inconsiderable.
Remember that people working on visas pay U.S. taxes. Remember also that their employers pay fees, etc, to get the visa. It’s not a “something for nothing” issue.
Work visas shouldn’t be considered “shady dealings.” In fact, if you want to CREATE AN INCENTIVE for employers to hire illegal immigrants, this is exactly the way to do it. I can’t imagine a reason why, to give an example from the article, one attorney would go from 2 denials in 15 years to 20 denials in 1 year without some serious misunderstanding of the value that professional grooms provide.
As someone whose very good friend (Canadian married to an American citizen) just received her green card about a month ago, I can tell you that it cost her over 10K. Out of pocket. How many grooms or even professional riders could come up with a spare 10K? I certainly don’t have all the answers, but this is a long, complicated, and very expensive process.
[QUOTE=KayBee;7697160]
Getting citizenship, even if you are married to an American, can be a long, difficult, EXPENSIVE process. Part of that is getting an employer to sponsor you, which is also a very difficult thing. And then there are the attorney fees, which are not inconsiderable.
Remember that people working on visas pay U.S. taxes. Remember also that their employers pay fees, etc, to get the visa. It’s not a “something for nothing” issue.
Work visas shouldn’t be considered “shady dealings.” In fact, if you want to CREATE AN INCENTIVE for employers to hire illegal immigrants, this is exactly the way to do it. I can’t imagine a reason why, to give an example from the article, one attorney would go from 2 denials in 15 years to 20 denials in 1 year without some serious misunderstanding of the value that professional grooms provide.[/QUOTE]
I have to reply to this. Paying taxes while on a work visa is not “brownie points” for a renewal, it is the expectation and standard. Obviously people in the country illegally are not paying taxes and that is a constant drain on the rest of contributing society. To use that as an argument for perceived unfair treatment of foreign employees is illogical.
I went over to the US Dept of State website to educated myself on the types of visas. The site is very clear in its description of the intended purpose of the work visas in question:
Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. Temporary worker visas are for persons who want to enter the United States for employment lasting a fixed period of time, and are not considered permanent or indefinite
And this:
All visa applicants, except H-1B and L, will generally need to show proof of compelling ties to your home country to demonstrate your intent to return after your temporary stay in the United States. Examples of compelling ties include:
A residence abroad which you do not intend to abandon
Your family relationships
Your economic situation
Your long term plans
The bolding is mine.
Before I get skewered, let me say that I think it fantastic to have an “international exchange” of information and skills; those relationships ought to be spawning off-shoots to our local riders, trainers, and grooms so they may grow into those valuable roles.
But to say that after 12 years that it is SHOCKING to not have a visa renewed, or that your world class, privileged, daughter is now stuck in Europe because the entire operation will fall apart without this one person to run the show?
Sorry, that just sounds ridiculously entitled and spoiled. Mr Kessler said he has spent tens of thousands of dollars fighting the visa denial. Tens of thousands of dollars.
So if this mission essential groom had been in a car wreck the entire Reed Kessler career would have come to a grinding halt? Obviously she is an amazing addition to their team, I get it. But c’mon, it seems extreme to be playing the victim card.
We obviously need a huge overhaul to “the system”, and attracting productive members of society into the fold while reducing non-productive members is a no brainer.
Temporary visas are called temporary for a reason. If we truly have no worthy grooms in this country, then maybe the teams should send a few candidates over to Europe on a student visa to learn the skills that apparently only they have.
[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;7697358]
I have to reply to this. Paying taxes while on a work visa is not “brownie points” for a renewal, it is the expectation and standard. Obviously people in the country illegally are not paying taxes and that is a constant drain on the rest of contributing society. To use that as an argument for perceived unfair treatment of foreign employees is illogical.[/QUOTE]
I am not implying that people on work visas need to be praised for paying taxes. I’m just pointing out that fact to some people, perhaps not yourself, who may be unaware.
But to say that after 12 years that it is SHOCKING to not have a visa renewed, or that your world class, privileged, daughter is now stuck in Europe because the entire operation will fall apart without this one person to run the show?
Where do you get that I find it “shocking”? Or are you addressing a point contained in the article and not in my post?
What I find shocking is that an attorney saw a rise from 2 people in 15 years to 15 (or whatever) in 1. That’s exponential. And it’s not as if the U.S. is generating MORE people whose dream job is to be a groom. That’s why there ARE so many illegal immigrants working as grooms (not at the professional level). I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A GOOD/RIGHT/LEGAL thing, I’m just describing the situation as it is.
As we lose more land for farming and livestock; as more and more people aren’t even exposed to large animals, let alone horses; you aren’t exactly looking at an expanding pool of people with the drive to become a top-level groom unless there are real incentives. And right now, in this country, those incentives are few and far between. The way things are trending (with unpaid corporate internships being deemed theft of labor) it would only take one or two lawsuit to destroy the concept of a working student. And then how do you afford to train up grooms.
Sorry, that just sounds ridiculously entitled and spoiled. Mr Kessler said he has spent tens of thousands of dollars fighting the visa denial. Tens of thousands of dollars.
So if this mission essential groom had been in a car wreck the entire Reed Kessler career would have come to a grinding halt? Obviously she is an amazing addition to their team, I get it. But c’mon, it seems extreme to be playing the victim card.
And I really think you’re underestimating the value of a good employee, one that you work well with and trust to do their job. I can’t even imagine how much time and money it takes the really top riders to get where they are and once you’ve found something that WORKS, why would you want to throw it out the window? Especially if you value that person as a colleague.
Oh well, they’re disposable, let’s just train up a working student? That seems odd to me.
Not to mention… it’s one thing to lose a colleague, and yes, I think if he were killed in an auto accident things might be problematic for more than a bit, as it would be in any workplace that experiences the sudden loss of a colleague.
We obviously need a huge overhaul to “the system”, and attracting productive members of society into the fold while reducing non-productive members is a no brainer.
There are probably those incentives for, say, software engineers, but, truly, how many professional grooms do you think there ARE in the U.S.? It’s not big numbers in terms of the overall job market.
Temporary visas are called temporary for a reason. If we truly have no worthy grooms in this country, then maybe the teams should send a few candidates over to Europe on a student visa to learn the skills that apparently only they have.
“The teams” send “a few” over? 4? 10? 50? For how long? Unless you can send big numbers over for training, it’s going to take decades to build up the numbers. Some won’t work out, some will decide it’s not for them, and so forth. And… I just don’t think the money to create that type of scholarship program exists. (Who is going to pay for their food/lodging/education while they’re over there?)
And who says it’s “skills only they have”? Read up the thread, about the incentives there are in Europe to choose grooming as a career – and therefore acquire those skills while still being paid a livable wage as you learn your trade – that do not (and IMO, will never) exist here.
Again, when you find something (someone) that works, you don’t want to change it.
I have limited experience with upper level riders, but… I have seen a little. And competing is stressful. And having someone who has completely got your back is not to be undervalued.
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