I’m not sure if I should post this here or in racing.
I am loosely searching for my next equine partner, and want another TB.
But I know next to nothing about which lines to stay away from and which to look for, in terms of ammy-friendly temperment.
I will be looking for one for dressage and trail riding. Basically one who can (wants to) “do it all”. I don’t show, and am not looking for a powerhouse performer.
I have many years of experience, different breeds and disciplines, just not the education of bloodlines.
I have access to a trainer, but will not be buying one right off the track.
I am by no means an expert, but the Buckpasser horses I’ve worked with have been nothing but quiet, sane sweethearts. The last one I rode we got in at 3, and I don’t think I ever saw a spook our any resistance out of her, from the first time I hopped on her back to her first horse trial. Just took everything in stride.
I think as a general rule AP Indy seems to put some good heads on his progeny’s shoulders. I felt that way about Seattle Slew too.
One horse that is local (and I also own one) that keeps popping up in my circle as quiet quiet quiet (born broke) are the Say Florida Sandy horses.
Maybe a better thread would be stallions known for bad minds - as there are a dime a dozen good-brained TBs out there but very few stallions that do throw difficult progeny.
If you are buying a TB well after the track I am not so sure how important the lines are vs if he is doing the job you want…
What kind of turnout will your future horse have access to? I’ve found that extremely important especially for TB’s. The ones I’ve owned or worked with have always done better with a full day (12 hrs) or 24/7 turnout. That can help immensely and can transform some horses from nutty to easy to handle.
[QUOTE=kashmere;8684112]
I am by no means an expert, but the Buckpasser horses I’ve worked with have been nothing but quiet, sane sweethearts. The last one I rode we got in at 3, and I don’t think I ever saw a spook our any resistance out of her, from the first time I hopped on her back to her first horse trial. Just took everything in stride.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I think they make good hunters, generally. Mine is not the sharpest crayon in the box, but he’s quiet and was a hunter type mover/jumper.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8684165]
I think as a general rule AP Indy seems to put some good heads on his progeny’s shoulders. I felt that way about Seattle Slew too.
One horse that is local (and I also own one) that keeps popping up in my circle as quiet quiet quiet (born broke) are the Say Florida Sandy horses.
Maybe a better thread would be stallions known for bad minds - as there are a dime a dozen good-brained TBs out there but very few stallions that do throw difficult progeny.
If you are buying a TB well after the track I am not so sure how important the lines are vs if he is doing the job you want…[/QUOTE]
I violently disagree about Slews. My experience, and I happen to own two grandget, is that they are quite quirky and quite opinionated. I believe that’s one reason why Slews have failed so dismally in sport. In the 80s and 90s people kept trying and failing with them–they just didn’t have the brain. One of mine spends half his trail rides crowhopping along. I think he just likes to crowhop. MY twos’ other close male lines are Deputy Minister and Fappiano and Proud Truth/Graustark.
Pine Tree Farm who used to post here but has since died had decades of experience and said Slews were failures in the show ring from the beginning. That they were beautiful and looked like hunters, but just couldn’t take the discipline of training and showing; and that they were not natural jumpers.
A little extreme to blame SS for their opinionated nature when he is so far back in their pedigree… Grandget? What about the sire and dam?
Is it Slew, or is it something else? Slew’s problem is he covered just about everything, some quality mares, some not. If you have grandget, I think it’s a little bit of a stretch to blame Slew for their quirkiness when he is so far back. I would sooner blame DM and/or Fappiano if they are in your guys’ pedigree[s] because both of those horses tend to throw very strong personalities. Great for sport, but they can make ammies cower.
I love Fappiano brains but they are not for everyone. They tend to think very fast with their feet and bodies and I have seen many riders overhorsed by them.
IME Seattle Slew makes a very rideable horse, as can be seen by the demand for several of his sons in LL sport - AP Indy especially. Whether or not it is athletic enough for what you want depends on the mare’s contribution. I don’t think Slew was big a failure as you’ve made him out to be: I have known many Slews in many different barns, lesson programs and training programs that have been sound and dependable mounts for children and re-riding adults. The thing I’ve found about Slew is that just about anyone can ride one safely.
Depends also on what you mean by “quirky”. I have a Slew in my front yard - he is very quirky. He is a professional in every aspect of the word, even as a geriatric he hates cuddles, cares little for grooming, and wants nothing to do with affection. But he is safe. He has never kicked or bucked out or tried to hurt anyone who has ever ridden him. I’ve talked about him before in other threads: he is the horse that would have been perfect for the long distance format in eventing but would struggle with the dressage today; he is very forward thinking and is one of the most honest horses I’ve ever met. He is the type that knows his job is to carry his rider safely. I think that is what OP is looking for, judging by her post.
Just off the top of my head, these are some others I’ve worked with that have been honest and quiet:
Cryptoclearance
In Reality
Damascus
Private Account
And my personal opinion, take from it what you may - I do actually think that Dixieland Band horses are very quiet once you find a routine for them that works. They are very high strung when they are younger but once they hit 7+ they consistently seem to mature and turn into “old souls”.
Horses are just all so special, it is hard to predict what any one horse will be based on bloodlines. There are trends but…well, there is such a range. I have a Fapp/Damascus and that horse is GORGEOUS and TALENTED but his limiting factor is his sensitive personality. He has a lot of meltdowns. It’s just who he is.
Here he is just playing around.
I have a Deputy Minister/Damascus/Private Account I think the world of and he has the best mind. Just wonderful. He isn’t as fancy on the flat as the other one but he has a great jump. His jump is better, really.
I had a sport-bred Castle Magic with a very ammy-friendly personality. That is a great line too and that horse was SUPER talented. They are harder to find these days but there are still quite a few descendants in Virginia. Plus, it never hurts to have a horse bred to jump and for ammies to ride over fences. When I was a kid you couldn’t throw a rock at a hunter/jumper show in Virginia without hitting two or three Castle Magics. Good movers, good jumpers, easy to ride.
You aren’t the only one to run into that issue with a Fappiano horse. I’ve ridden many and none of them have been easy. My type of ride is forward & sensitive so it’s wprked okay for me but they do have frequent melt-downs (normally over non-issue things) that can really be frustrating. There’s a reason Fappiano horses are called “Fiasciano horses” in my area and it’s not because someone’s being a smart-ass.
For instance, the two Fappianos that I rode the most consistently both had the same spook… We’d school in the ring or grass field w/t/c and they’d be perfect… we’d go out for a hack to cool down and they’d spook violently at at least one of the jumps in the XC field… If you don’t keep their minds busy for them they’ll find ways to do it themselves and I guarantee you aren’t going to like it… but on the same coin, those minds were always thinking which made them extraordinary partners XC… I called them the ‘analysts of the freeworld’ as you can always see their mind churning.
yeah, he’s been called a lot of things but “easy” ain’t one of them.
I originally bought him as a project and ended up keeping him. in part because he’s been fun, and in part… I took him to a clinic with a very famous eventing trainer, and they were spot on when they said, “Look this horse is super. And you’ll never get any money for him because he’s way too hard to ride. Just keep him for yourself and have fun. Everyone deserves to have nice things.” So I did.
Agree that In Reality horses are generally quiet, big, pretty, and maybe also not the brightest. Again, good hunters (see a trend?) You used to see that breeding a LOT and now I feel like you don’t anymore. I’ve known some nice ones, I’d have one if I could find out.
Yeah, mine has never seen a white butterfly unworthy of jumping several feet sideways and then likely bucking a few times. white butterflies are unnatural, according to Ted.
OP—don’t concern yourself about the pedigree. You state you will be looking at horses not straight off the track. So that much easier to judge the horse in front of you…not on paper.
The BIGGER issue is going to someone reputable for what you want…and then management. I sold one who was DEAD quiet at my farm…went with the first buyer and they had a ton of issues. I have no idea what they did to him…he came home, returned to his quiet self. Another buyer came a long…bought him, love him and he is doing great with them. He stayed quiet with his current owner.
Basically…it is finding the right match for both of you. And while a pedigree can give an indication…really, judge the horse in front of you and how you click with them…from a reputable seller.
Buckpasser and Turn-To are getting a little far back in the pedigree but my eyes open a little wider when I see them in a pedigree (often they are in the same pedigree) because they invariably put a jump in a horse.
A.P. Indy’s are getting into the showing now and the prices are feasible…worth a look in my book. (Jumpstart)
Mainly, judge the horse in front of you and especially look at the feet and heels.
But, but, the thing I loved most about my 3 ottb mares, after their very high intelligence, was their hot disposition. The more inbred, the better. Callie was so intelligent and so hot, and so very good to me. It just requires a person who admits that a smart ottb mare is smarter than most humans.
I’d love to have another like Callie. Don’t want a calm and dull horse ever. Get yourself an appendix or TB cross or something if you want quiet. Heck, even my 50% TB WB is hot.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8684250]
You aren’t the only one to run into that issue with a Fappiano horse. I’ve ridden many and none of them have been easy. My type of ride is forward & sensitive so it’s wprked okay for me but they do have frequent melt-downs (normally over non-issue things) that can really be frustrating. There’s a reason Fappiano horses are called “Fiasciano horses” in my area and it’s not because someone’s being a smart-ass.
For instance, the two Fappianos that I rode the most consistently both had the same spook… We’d school in the ring or grass field w/t/c and they’d be perfect… we’d go out for a hack to cool down and they’d spook violently at at least one of the jumps in the XC field… If you don’t keep their minds busy for them they’ll find ways to do it themselves and I guarantee you aren’t going to like it… but on the same coin, those minds were always thinking which made them extraordinary partners XC… I called them the ‘analysts of the freeworld’ as you can always see their mind churning.[/QUOTE]
EVERYTHING about this speaks to my Fappiano mare.
She. Is. Amazing. But she is not everyone’s ride. She is quick, hot, and sensitive sensitive sensitive. She needs a lot of feedback and a confident rider. I absolutely love her, but I need a sense of humour every time I sit in the saddle. She came to me having failed out as as school horse (DUHHHH) and being used as a broodmare for 2 seasons and was a really neurotic little mess. A lot of tact and time and her personality is just shining through - sweet, cuddly, and really fun to be around. With the right ride (tactful, forward, and confident) she is brave as the day is long and athletic, but let her get in her head and it’s game over.
I’m with bornfree, judge the horse in front of you. There is a lot of variability. Half siblings can have polar opposite personalities. Early handling and training can make a big difference also. Oh, and obviously the dam (not the well known stallion) is probably more than 50% of the temperament makeup of a foal, and there’s no good way to accurately track that down.
Modern TBs are bred with pretty much zero concern for temperament, so I think it is very important to evaluate horses individually. A horse might have a great pedigree and a wonderful physical aptitude for sport, but a personality that’s never going to make them a pleasant horse to own or ride.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8684192]
What kind of turnout will your future horse have access to? I’ve found that extremely important especially for TB’s. The ones I’ve owned or worked with have always done better with a full day (12 hrs) or 24/7 turnout. That can help immensely and can transform some horses from nutty to easy to handle.[/QUOTE]
ABSOLUTELY!!! Bloodlines can only “do” so much. I agree that the AP Indy and Seattle Slews “tend” to be quiet…but remember…the horse has TWO parents!! A flakey mare can over-ride the best bloodlines!! I’d look at both sides of the family tree…and the individual in front of me!! A pleasure horse does NOT need huge amounts of grain and supplements either!!
I have an Even the Score mare who is SO easy and even keeled. She’s also tall, with good bone and a nice mover. Quite lovely. I’ve spoken with others who have get by this sire with similar reports.
Haven’t seen much from him since Dullahan (I don’t think?) but they pop up on Canter or the other rehoming sites with some regularity…certainly worth a look if you happen to find one.
