Looking at this stallion as a sport horse sire. What are your thoughts on his pedigree in regards to that?
He’s only about 15.3hh. Has a easy going, in-your-pocket attitude, and is really smart. I know he started racing as a late 2yo and is now 6 and has retired sound. He didn’t do that great on the track with a record of 2-1-2.
Recent photo of him
https://scontent-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11066562_10205080491046243_4370679955932306448_n.jpg?oh=2a4bff9f09adca74fccd403108ffb8ae&oe=55ACB4FB
My first impression is that he’s very cute and he’d make someone a very cute gelding. 
Are you looking at breeding to him or to stand him yourself?
Most sporthorse people are going to FREAK OUT when they see Unbridled’s Song. Thanks to a few high profile breakdowns, Unbridled’s Song has a somewhat undeserved reputation for perpetuating unsoundness. In my firsthand experience with his get as racehorses, I think the problem lies in the fact that his kids were too precocious and too fast for their own good. His offspring were generally big and mature looking at a young age, and as a result they were pushed too hard and too fast before they were ready.
A lot of sporthorse people appreciate Dixieland Band. Personally, I’ve never been a fan only because every Dixieland Band horse I’ve had has been whack-a-doodle. Either way, I don’t think being by Dixieland Band is a strong argument for or against keeping him a stallion.
Looking farther back in his dam line, there are some names that are generally well regarded in sport, specifically Roberto and Caro. But they are pretty far back there.
At the end of the day, my big question would be what can he truly offer to the sporthorse world? If someone gets him going under saddle and he’s a successful competitor, then that’s fabulous. But his pedigree is pretty common for a race-bred TB. If he has attributes you’d want to breed to yourself, that’s great, but he’s going to need more than names on a piece of paper to be truly marketable.
We are looking at breeding our Arabian mare to him. She is a nice hunter but can be a bit hot. Foal would be registerable as an Anglo-Arab Half-Arabian.
I know Mike will be transitioning to a show horse life. Not sure if he will be a hunter, dressage or both.
I was just curious as to others opinions on his pedigree in regards to sport.
He is cute. I do own him and have also considered collecting him and getting it frozen and stored then gelding him.
Thanks for the reply. Every opinion helps to make the decision easier.
Personally, I would not generally consider using a TB stallion to quiet down a hot Arab temperament.
You should be able to get an idea of his suitability as a dressage horse vs hunter by movement. I’d love to see some video of him moving at liberty.
He is cute to look at and I love his hindend construction! However he looks light in the bone dept. Also it doesn’t seem there is alot of height behind him, so he’s not likely to throw height. That might be a drawback when bred to an Arab mare if you are looking to produce a taller offspring.
Have you looked into the cost of collecting & freezing a stallion? It is NOT cheap. And you won’t even know if the semen is “good” till after afew tries. For what it will cost you to do all of this, you could breed several mares to some very nice WB (or sport TB) stallions.
Speaking for myself, I would not want to put all that $$ into a stallion who is unproven as a producer.
I can’t comment on his pedigree for sport – perhaps Viney will chime in.
But I can tell you he has virtually zero value as a sporthorse sire for the general public and (I’m guessing) none for the racing breeder either. So chances are good the only mare owners who would use him would be yourself and maybe some local breeders/friends if you gave them a good deal on the stud fee.
So are you just looking to cross him to this one mare or do you have other mares you are considering breeding to him as well?
Like I said, I don’t see him as a stallion to build a breeding program around, but if you are wanting to breed him just this once to your Arab mare then chances are pretty good the resulting foal will not be horrible.
But there is no way of knowing if he will improve the mare’s canter (always a weak point with most Arabs)…or for that matter, what he will add to the mix. Looks like he might be abit short in the neck as well, which can be a drawback for a jumper.
For that matter, what about his general athletic ability? Can he jump? Have you evaluated his gaits? Pedigree is a good starting point, but you also need to look at what qualities he himself possesses; correctness of conformation, quality of feet, quality of WTC, suppleness.
You never know till you try it, but in general (if one was simply to “play the odds”), you would be better off making Mike into a gelding and breeding your mare to a proven stallion.
Cute guy, though. LOVE his color.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8063918]
My first impression is that he’s very cute and he’d make someone a very cute gelding. Are you looking at breeding to him or to stand him yourself?
Most sporthorse people are going to FREAK OUT when they see Unbridled’s Song. Thanks to a few high profile breakdowns, Unbridled’s Song has a somewhat undeserved reputation for perpetuating unsoundness. In my firsthand experience with his get as racehorses, I think the problem lies in the fact that his kids were too precocious and too fast for their own good. His offspring were generally big and mature looking at a young age, and as a result they were pushed too hard and too fast before they were ready.
A lot of sporthorse people appreciate Dixieland Band. Personally, I’ve never been a fan only because every Dixieland Band horse I’ve had has been whack-a-doodle. Either way, I don’t think being by Dixieland Band is a strong argument for or against keeping him a stallion.
Looking farther back in his dam line, there are some names that are generally well regarded in sport, specifically Roberto and Caro. But they are pretty far back there.
At the end of the day, my big question would be what can he truly offer to the sporthorse world? If someone gets him going under saddle and he’s a successful competitor, then that’s fabulous. But his pedigree is pretty common for a race-bred TB. If he has attributes you’d want to breed to yourself, that’s great, but he’s going to need more than names on a piece of paper to be truly marketable.[/QUOTE]
interesting you say that, as i have never heard anyone with that opinion. i have loved every DB horse i’ve met. i think like Storm Cat offspring, they need a very intuitive handler. they don’t respond well to unfair handling, and i also think that mentally it takes a while for them to mature. they don’t seem to come out of the womb as old souls. opposite to unbridled song horses or bold ruler horses, who look and SEEM mature and are precocious and easy to move along.
the other correlation i’ve seen with DB horses is they can jump. i had a dixie brass horse that was one of the cattiest horses i ever met. he was par for the course for all other DB horses i’ve met, in that he was quirky and sensitive when he was young (7 and younger) and once he hit eight it was like a switch went off, quietest old soul you ever met. but the beginning was not easy. :winkgrin:
one concern about DB that i HAVE heard of is a high incidence of aneurysms/sudden collapse in the family. there are a few threads on COTH i’ve read that have had other posters comment that horses they had with DB up close in the pedigree had died suddenly/unexpectedly.
regarding the horse’s pedigree, i’m in texarkana’s camp unless the horse has actually done something. he does have a good sport pedigree - i like seeing fappiano on top personally, but DB w/ fappiano and kris s shows promise as a very, very good jumper. i’ve seen quite a few good sport horses w/ fappiano up top w and kris S bottom that have been very talented. however, both fappiano and kris s are notorious for being difficult.
i’d wonder about his movement. most of the stallions in his pedigree had very average ‘meh’ movement.
IMO, Fappiano line horses tend to have very good brains; they are thinking all the time and able to solve problems. I’ve never heard that they were unusually difficult.
You and I have seen very similar things with Dixieland Band horses. Like I said, they ones I’ve cared for have been “whack-a-doodle” meaning they were emotionally high maintenance. They were all in race training and had a really hard time having a job. They probably would have been great “one person” horses, but regardless of athletic ability, I have a hard time believing any of the horses I knew would have been top competitors only because they were such sensitive worriers. Also-- they were not the healthiest of horses. It’s funny you mention the aneurysm thing. While I can’t personally recall an aneurysm, I don’t think any of the DB horses I knew and cared for survived to old age. They all succumbed to things like freak accidents, colic, or mystery illness.
I’ve heard a lot of jumper people love Dixieland Band for the reasons you said. I have no doubt they can jump. He just wasn’t one of my favorite sires.
With all that said, there are exceptions to everything and pedigree is just one piece of the puzzle. I’m a strong believe in evaluating the horse in front of you.
OP- I really do think he’s adorable. If he has a nice enough temperament, there’s no reason why you can’t keep him intact while he progresses with his show training. But to be truly marketable, he’s really going to need something besides pedigree.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8065966]
You and I have seen very similar things with Dixieland Band horses. Like I said, they ones I’ve cared for have been “whack-a-doodle” meaning they were emotionally high maintenance. They were all in race training and had a really hard time having a job. They probably would have been great “one person” horses, but regardless of athletic ability, I have a hard time believing any of the horses I knew would have been top competitors only because they were such sensitive worriers. Also-- they were not the healthiest of horses. It’s funny you mention the aneurysm thing. While I can’t personally recall an aneurysm, I don’t think any of the DB horses I knew and cared for survived to old age. They all succumbed to things like freak accidents, colic, or mystery illness.
I’ve heard a lot of jumper people love Dixieland Band for the reasons you said. I have no doubt they can jump. He just wasn’t one of my favorite sires.
With all that said, there are exceptions to everything and pedigree is just one piece of the puzzle. I’m a strong believe in evaluating the horse in front of you.
OP- I really do think he’s adorable. If he has a nice enough temperament, there’s no reason why you can’t keep him intact while he progresses with his show training. But to be truly marketable, he’s really going to need something besides pedigree.[/QUOTE]
on the subject of freak accidents, mystery illnesses, etc, my DB (we assume) got struck by lightning as he went down in a torrential thunderstorm. you never know with them. after my DB passed away i started to search the family extensively, including on COTH. i was saddened to see most of the anecdotes said they had early deaths. i’d be so thrilled if the JC (or any organization) published some sort of study on bloodline longevity… which families lived to a ripe old age, which families were more predisposed to early breakdowns… of course, not currently very possible but a girl can dream.
OP, i completely agree with texarkana that by pedigree alone he is not spectacular (though he is cute). i would think he needs to prove something before anyone of serious ambition would consider breeding to him.
I like the pedigree ---- but without a performance record that stands up well against WB stallions, you are going to have a very hard time finding people who would rather breed to him than to a WB.
I LOVE Dixieland Band. I have found them (most recently, a son and a grandson (through Chimes Band) kicking quiet and very friendly.
I also love Unbridled’s Song. He is hard to find in a sport horse pedigree because his offspring are usually too expensive to be used as sport horses. But with Caro and Fappiano as his grandsires, he has wonderful sport horse bloodlines. His get can be unsound, but that is under racing conditions. Especially if the U.S. blood comes through a horse with many starts, I would not be worried at all.
However, I think you are in the realm of “a good stallion makes a great gelding”. I agree with the others that he has more potential in the sport horse performance world than he does in the breeding world.
I may be missing something…I gather the OP doesn’t own this stallion, just deciding to breed to him.
I really like the pedigree. Especially Northern Dancer so close in. Amazing that this stallion’s sire was used for breeding at the ripe old age of 28.
OP, if you find this stallion’s temperament and conformation that will suit your mare, then I don’t see a problem with the breeding. That said, if your mare is rather “hot”, I doubt you’ll fix that breeding to a TB. But it “can” happen – it’s a crapshoot sometimes.:yes:
You might want to post a good conformation shot of your mare as well. Lots of experienced breeders here, but you might need to wade through the replies.
other than him not having any of the breeding I like (aside from Fappiano of course)
I wouldn’t use him because his back is long and his neck is short.
maybe also think about using a nice QH or Appendix? QHs are usually 3/4 to 7/8th TB these days.
If you want a TB…use Fred.
http://www.thoroughbredsusa.com/stud/A-Fine-Romance-50.html
A Fine Romance is retired now.
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;8066551]
other than him not having any of the breeding I like (aside from Fappiano of course)
I wouldn’t use him because his back is long and his neck is short.
maybe also think about using a nice QH or Appendix? QHs are usually 3/4 to 7/8th TB these days.
If you want a TB…use Fred.
http://www.thoroughbredsusa.com/stud/A-Fine-Romance-50.html[/QUOTE]
hmmm… i’d disagree that his back is long and neck short. maybe OP can grace us with a conformation shot of him standing square? he definitely has a big tuckus for sure but i don’t see a long back, and his loin connection is super. hard to tell from a moving picture… even trainwrecks can look good moving.
Pedigree: just ok/ nothing special. Confo: would want to see a confo photo. Movement : not based on this photo/ would want to see more reach/ tracking up with the hind leg under him.
