Thoroughbred stallion prospect?

[Real_Rush]

Hi everyone! After a long time away, I’ve begun kicking around the idea of breeding again. I’ve discovered an older gentleman available near me, and would love anyone’s input on what they think of his pedigree for sport: https://www.pedigreequery.com/valiant+crusader

I know his track career was cut short due to an injury, but not sure what exactly happened. (Doesn’t look like he had much promise anyway.) I’m planning on going to see him in person this weekend and can share pics after that, if anyone is interested. TIA!

[weixiao]

I absolutely adored my Crusader Sword gelding. He was small but was a great jumper, had a great brain, and was a good mover.

[Texarkana]

I have a Crusader Sword mare. I got to meet Crusader Sword up at Old Friends in Saratoga before his death. He was quite aged at that point and certainly showing it, so it was hard to comment on his appearance much. In pictures from his youth, he was a good looking animal, and you can’t help but love his pedigree for sport.

This guy’s race record is abysmal, injury or not. He was dropping in class and still not showing any ability. That doesn’t mean anything for his sport prospects, I’m just saying that because sometimes promoters will be like, “he would have been the next coming of Secretariat if he hadn’t been injured.” No.

My Crusader Sword mare is tiny-- 15.1h and fine boned, although I suspect something may have happened to her as a foal/yearling that may have stunted that, because her foals are 16h+.

She is dumb as a box of rocks. She’s a bit of a spaz. She takes thoroughbred suicidal tendencies to the next level.

BUT… she has the single most athletic hind end of any thoroughbred I have ever met. Ever. She uses it effortlessly. She can shift her weight back and generate the uphill impulsion needed for upper levels of dressage. She can launch herself over anything. She can sit on her hocks and spin like a reiner or cutting horse. She is TOUGH as nails. I would put those two traits on to anything if I could.

Eventers and dressage folks go nuts over her when they see her, even at 25 years of age. My girl was a broodmare her entire life, sans a short racing career. She missed her calling as a riding horse, even with her dodgy temperament.

There’s plenty of stuff on the bottom of his pedigree to talk about, too. It’s just not often you see a Crusader Sword son in tact.

[Dressagelvr]

In order for a Thoroughbred to be considered a viable sport horse stallion, the horse needs to have proven itself in sport.

Failing on on the track in no way qualifies a horse as a sport horse stallion prospect.

TBs are bred to run fast for a few years. They are not bred for soundness or temperament.

This guy may be a lovely sport horse himself if he is sound. I wouldn’t consider breeding him for sport unless he really excel.

Maybe he’d be better as a race stallion prospect?

[EventerAJ]

He’s an 18 year old stallion; what has he produced? Do you like his offspring? Does he stamp his foals? Why are you interested in him? What does he offer your mare?

I have a TB stallion with a solid pedigree and not much race record; but he’s proving himself at sport before I market him to outside mares.

[Texarkana]

@Dressagelvr

In order for a Thoroughbred to be considered a viable sport horse stallion, the horse needs to have proven itself in sport.

Failing on on the track in no way qualifies a horse as a sport horse stallion prospect.

TBs are bred to run fast for a few years. They are not bred for soundness or temperament.

This guy may be a lovely sport horse himself if he is sound. I wouldn’t consider breeding him for sport unless he really excel.

Maybe he’d be better as a race stallion prospect?

Bold mine.

If your reason for excluding him as a sport stallion is not proving himself in sport, why on earth do you think he’d make an acceptable race stallion?

It works both ways.

Also, your statement “TBs are bred to run fast for a few years. They are not bred for soundness or temperament.” That generalization always needles me. I get where you’re coming from, but it paints an incomplete picture of what’s actualy happening. Race breeding is a lot more tolerant of temperaments than sport for a bunch of reasons, mainly due to the fact that race horses are always handled by a team of pros, unlike sport horses that are generally handled by an individual. But at the end of the day, a race stallion who throws temperaments unsuitable for racing is going to find himself without a job.

It’s the same with soundness. Racing is a riskier sport than jumping, dressage, even eventing. Injuries will never be eliminated, and a lot of injuries are environmental. There are definitely priorities that could be shifted to improve soundness, but a sire who gets unsound horses will find himself without interest fairly quickly.

The big difference is numbers. It’s a higher dollar industry with more earnings potential, so more mares are bred period. An independent yet contributing factor is that breeding is highly dependent on the commercial market for young horses, which loves speculation. As a result, a new sire often gets more mares in his first years at stud than a sporthorse stallion sees in his lifetime. When a racing sire gets unsound horses with bad temperaments, it’s usually readily apparent by the time they start running and the stallion’s numbers drop markedly. But by that point, he can already have hundreds of foals on the ground thanks to the interest he generated when he was an unknown commodity, giving the impression that “no one cares.”

[Laurierace]

In my opinion there is no such thing as an 18 year old anything prospect. If you want him for yourself to ride or even breed some mares to that is fine but he is too old to become proven at this point.

[Real_Rush]

Thank you to everyone who chimed in, I appreciate your insights and opinions. After going to see him in person, it became apparent that the owner just wanted to get rid of him. He wasn’t in deplorable condition, but being stuck in a stall 24/7, he had absolutely no muscle tone and was a tad ribby. After doing some quick soul-searching, I ended up purchasing him for a pittance.

He is an absolute gentleman to handle, with perfect ground manners. Even after I got him home and he realized there were ladies about, he remained very easy to handle. He’s so laid-back and easy going and has very kind, soft eyes. I love, love, love his shoulder. His hind legs are a tad behind the vertical, but that’s the only true fault I can see in his conformation.

As weixiao and Texarcana mentioned of their Crusader Sword offspring, he is on the smaller side. I haven’t sticked him properly yet, but guesstimate he’s ~15.3. He is very slender at the moment, but I’m interested to see how he fills back out once he gets some better groceries in him and builds up some muscle.

As Laurierace mentioned, he is too old to be a prospect for anything. My original intention was to possibly send one mare to him, but now that I ended up buying him, I’m kicking around the idea of pairing him up with one more of my mares. I have absolutely NO intention of marketing him for stud service. To me, it is a desire to preserve the bloodlines. I can’t even remember the last time I saw an intact stallion with Damascus as his grandsire. Now, if the foal(s) come out next year damn fugly ;), then he’ll be gelded and found a good home for. With his temperament and the fact he can be ridden, he would certainly make someone a nice gelding for the trails, if his late life job as a stallion doesn’t pan out.

Speaking of, is there anyone who could check Equibase to see if he has any registered offspring? I don’t have a paid membership, and pedigreequery shows nothing. I know the guy I bought him from had used him a few times to cross with racing QH’s, with some success.

I’d love to share pics from the weekend, but honestly would rather give him a couple weeks to settle in, gain some weight, etc so he will make a better impression. I’d love any more advice anyone can give, especially as this is the first time I’ve ever personally owned a stallion. I’ve handled plenty in my life, including in the breeding shed, but never actually owned one, so this is a new chapter for me.

[beowulf]

@Dressagelvr

In order for a Thoroughbred to be considered a viable sport horse stallion, the horse needs to have proven itself in sport.

Failing on on the track in no way qualifies a horse as a sport horse stallion prospect.

TBs are bred to run fast for a few years. They are not bred for soundness or temperament.

Racing is the toughest sport out there for horses. Comments like the bold always get to me, because it shows a flawed understanding of the sport, and a very myopic view of race horse breeders/trainers/owners, who do want sound horses or they wouldn’t have successful runners… In order to run fast for a few years, they need to be sound. A horse that isn’t 100% sound, isn’t going to run fast… If TBs were nothing but unsound, they wouldn’t be able to withstand the rigors of racing… and we know that is obviously not the case, as we have plenty of hard-knocking mares and stallions with consistent race records, producing more horses with consistent race records. The sport is very successful at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Like Texarkana said, if a stallion standing was passing on unsoundness, the interest in his book would dwindle quite rapidly. What drives up interest in a stallion is successful and consistent runners, and/or promise in future racing prospects at sales.

I think everyone gets caught up in this misconception because it’s such a high profile sport, with thousands more horses produced yearly than any other discipline - so it becomes more “common” to see these racing castaways or failures, which color people’s perspectives because the numbers seem much larger. In other disciplines there is likely a similar percentage of wastage, but it is not as public and the pool is much smaller…

Meanwhile, you have the very issue complained about actually persistent in WB breeding right now… where young horses are being bred for sale, with very little concern about future soundness; with lots of in-vogue stallions being unproven in terms of long-term soundness. It’s not as if these stallions went through the same gauntlet freshman TB sires do to earn all of that interest… So many of them can barely manage a 2nd level career without needing some serious management. As someone with a foot in both worlds, I think there should be more concern here about long-term soundness than for TBs being bred to race… YMMV.

[Simkie]

@Real Rush

Speaking of, is there anyone who could check Equibase to see if he has any registered offspring? I don’t have a paid membership, and pedigreequery shows nothing.

Doesn’t have a single report of mares bred according to the Jockey Club. Sometimes they send the report in late, and the site isn’t updated, but it seems unlikely that he has any JC babies.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.as…ources&area=19

Btw, an equineline account is free. The reports themselves cost a few bucks. You might want to pull #33, Sire’s Crop Analysis, to confirm if he has any JC get.

http://www.equineline.com/prodsamp.cfm?mode=TB

Equibase is more for race records. Their database is holey otherwise, especially when it comes to horses that didn’t run, or at least have published works at the track.

[Real_Rush]

Thanks, Simkie. That’s what I was thinking of, the report that shows any registered offspring. I knew it had to be paid for, but thought it was free to certain users.

Makes me wonder why he was kept intact for so long if he was never bred to JC mares. According to the sales history on the back of his papers, at one time he was owned by Kevin Greely (bigwig in Indiana and Illinois racing), so you’d think he would’ve covered some.

[Simkie]

He might have been used as a teaser?

[Texarkana]

@Real Rush I’d love to see a picture of this guy. :yes:

I agree, an 18 year old who has done nothing most of his life isn’t a serious prospect for anything. But if you can support a foal, I see no harm in seeing what he sires. He’s your stallion after all.

I also see no harm in doing some under saddle work with him and see what his riding temperament is like.

There is a (tiny) niche market for sport TB stallions most places because of logistics alone. Anyone wanting to breed something full-blooded and registerable can’t ship semen, racing stallion prices are out of reach for most sport breeders, and there just aren’t that many proven, intact sport TB sires. If this guy fills out nicely and checks enough boxes, you might generate some local interest.

I hate it when people automatically rule out breeding stock on the internet due to circumstance. In my opinion, breeding is about responsibility, consideration, and understanding your needs.

With all that said, it’s SO much easier to own a gelding. :lol: And you know what they say, a nice stallion makes an even nicer gelding. If he’s in good health and you have good vets nearby, I wouldn’t rule out that option.

[jvanrens]

You could call AQHA and see if he has any registered offspring. Might not tell you much, but you might be able to track down some of his offspring to see what they are like.

[Dressagelvr]

Beowulf-unfortunately, you are correct in the current WB young horse and breeding trends. TBs (along with a few others) have long been throw always by their primary sport at a young age. I’m not sure any other industry fills slaughter houses like the race industry, but others are out there.

And it Breaks my heart to see so many other breeds & disciplines coming to the throw away mentality.

OP, good for you for rescuing this guy. He may not be a good stallion, but he sounds like a wonderful horse.

I’m so glad he got the soft landing he deserves.