Thoroughbreds in Dressage

[LilyandBaron]

Echo all of the above, but surprised no mention of low heels? It’s very common in TBs, and not a huge deal, but just something to be aware of. My mare has awesome hoof quality - no chips, etc., but the low heels. We go barefoot in winter, but bar shoes in spring/summer to assist. But yes, sounds like you will LOVE the TB mind! Good luck!

Another option could be Saddlebreds - I’ve got my OTTB and have ridden literally over 200 OTTBs in sales barns over the years, and LOVE TBs, but I got a chance to be around Saddlebreds, and they have a similar mindset - forward, but smart and not stupid (exceptions in every batch, obviously), and I’m excited to look at them, in addition to TBs, when I get my next dressage prospect. I don’t dislike WBs, and many have lots of blood and you can find forward/hot WBs, but I like rescues, so I have a random Baroque cross rescue, the OTTB mare, and an OTTSTB who is adorable.

Happy shopping!!!

[Mondo]

Oh, Lilyand Baron that is such a good point. I often refer to TBs as having “glass feet.” They just don’t generally breed for good hooves because they run them until they break down and having a good, solid, long lasting hoof isn’t paramount to a racehorse breeder.

OP - one other thing I forgot to mention is that I once had a Canadian TB. He was registered with the Canadian Jockey Club and he never raced. They tend to have better bone and just be more substantial overall. People often asked me if I had a 17 hand Andalusian! He was grey (white, really) and had moves like you would not believe. He was the first horse I trained to piaffe. He was just amazing. Wish I could have cloned him. Sigh…

Anyway, point is - if this mare you are looking at doesn’t pan out - look at some Canadian TBs too!

[Calhoun]

A little off topic - Netg mentioned her TB was muscle tight and thought it could be due to a Mag deficiency. I had a TB foxhunter who was also muscle tight, you could punch him and break a finger - just kidding. Put him on the EPSM oil diet and in 3-4 months he softened up, he was no longer angular looking, all muscles looked soft and round. Just a thought.

[tbchick84]

@EventerAJ

Great advice here. Also, I’ve noticed the Roberto shoulder (through Kris S, Dynaformer, etc) often has an uphill athletic feel.

I have a horse by Kissin Kris, so he’s got Kris S and Roberto. Yes the shoulder is very upright. In my horse’s case, his neck ties in rather low and would be passed over in an instant for a dressage horse, but man can he walk the walk in the sandbox.

The things I love most about TBs is their willingness to please, how smart they are and how quickly they earn. Once they understand what you want, they’re actually a bit vain and love to show you how well they can do it.

[jump_pony]

I just looked at Eventer AJ’s video… you should buy him if he is for sale!
He looks great now, just imangine how he will look with more training.

[Dressagelvr]

TBs are bred for racing, which requires a very different conformation than does dressage. Yes, some lines tend to move better than others, but there’s really no such thing as a dressage bred TB.

Many TBs are great horses who are a blast to ride, but if you’re looking to work up the levels and compete in open shows, a TB might not be the best fit.

If you’re looking for a fun partnership and competition at local or TB breed shows…a TB might be just what you’re looking for. I’m not saying all TBs won’t do well in open competition, just that the ones that will are hard to find.

The real question is your goals.

Oh, don’t think that all WBs are “too quiet”. Just like not all TBs are “too hot”.

These days, there are also lots of crosses out there, so a TB/WB or Arab/WB might also fit the bill.

I used to ride nothing but TBs back in the day (we all did). I still always keep an eye on the TBs out there for sale. In the past year, I’ve seen two that I would buy. One just the other day. I can’t remember who has him, but he was a very plain looking chestnut who blew my socks off with his movement. I don’t think he had a single white hair, but he was loose in the back and had tons of scope in his gaits for a TB.

If you’re set on a TB, he must be uphill and have a high neck set. These two criteria alone will cut out 95+% of what’s out there.

[Jleegriffith]

I sell upward of 70 Tb’s a year so I love them but for dressage I’m looking for a very uphill tb with hocks well set under and a good shoulder angle. I can fix feet, weight and muscles but the conformation has to be there. I want them forward but mentally able to take direction.

This one just came in and it’s his first ride post track but he is exactly what I look for in a TB. https://youtu.be/WqK6qxfP7Sc just the uphill balance and the overall shape. He is a 3yr and has just been turned out so he will muscle up and grow but only in a better direction.

[Jleegriffith]

Eventeraj- wow, he is lovely!

[TwoTrickPony]

Netg–Your TB is lovely. I love that hind end. “Straightness” is not an issue with dressage. That allows for them to piaffe/passage amazingly. My mare (out of an Olympic dressage horse) is far straighter behind than that and she can p/p up the whazoo.

Besides all of the great advice, look for the separation of the hind legs in the trot and canter especially. A horse with a wide V between the hind legs shows the ability to articulate and collect that is needed so much in dressage.

[Pipkin]

You get so many different types, you really need to judge what you see on the day. I bought mine (in my profile pic) just as a pal, his conformation is okay but not ‘dressage-y’ - he has actually done remarkably well considering his butt is two inches higher than his withers. That is where tbs stand out - they have heart!!

I know a lot of ex racers, some have issues and some don’t. I have found if they have raced a lot and stayed sound, they tend to stay sound into old age. I guess only strong legs stand up to racing at a young age. Mine has been very sound (touch wood!!) though did have ulcers, which I think most probably do. I guess they can be hot and/or spooky. But it’s amusing for spectators? If they have been let down, they might seem very quiet, but be a whole different animal when fit and in work. Just something to be aware of. A lot have quite complicated and ingrained issues with their mouth and contact. I would try and find something that at least lets you have some feel on the reins, and will reach out a bit to the contact, even intermittently. When I got mine I literally couldn’t touch his mouth, and although we have more or less overcome that now it is quite a challenge, and I know many ex racers that are the same - and some who show absolutely no hang-ups about contact. Get one like that if you can

Be aware that you are seeing a blank canvass. Ignore a ewe neck, that can be fixed. Ignore a boring trot so long as it is correct - when my guy trots at liberty, he has the shuffliest little downhill trot. Under saddle he gets mistaken for a warmblood! Go for something quiet, forgiving, and that can take a joke. Be aware that progress will be slow and at times frustrating, but in the end you will be rewarded

I’ve attached pics of mine when I got him and now. He is still quite downhill and his neck is still too long. But you can usually improve an ex racer quite a lot

[Blkarab]

Thank you all for the great advice!

AJ—your guy is lovely!!! He looks very similar to the mare I’m going to take a look at tomorrow. My trainer is going with me, and we have several that we are going to take a look at. I have lots of time to find my next partner…I’m not rushing. My Arab mare is 17, and she is going strong. I would like to find something by the end of the year that I can start to develop now before I will need to retire or back down the work with my mare.

My Arab mare was definitely not built for dressage, but with a lot of hard work, she is doing quite well…so, I’m not afraid of a project or taking the time to work with and build a horse up correctly. I have never felt more fulfilment than seeing the progress my current mare has made. It’s amazing what patience and correct riding can do, and I’m anxious to transfer what I have learned from her, to my next horse. I’ve owned her since she was a 2 year old, so developing a horse is not a new project for me, and I have two fantastic trainers that are able and willing to help.

Also, I know not all WBs are “too quiet”. I take each horse as an individual. However, I’m in a barn with quiet a few upper level WBs, and as much as I love their personalities and I’m amazed at their talent…every single one of them has had some sort of health issue…stemming from really bad feet, to eye issues, to suspensory issues, etc. I’m wanting something a bit more hardy. If I could afford a WB cross it would be an Arab/WB or TB/WB. However, most around here are priced way out of my price range. I also like the idea of finding that diamond in the rough. I’m not looking to go to the Olympics, I just want something suitable that I connect well with and can have some fun while progressing up the levels a bit.

JLeegriffith—thank you for the photo, that is a great reference. I am not as concerned about the neck and weight as I am the hocks, shoulder and topline. Having a very weak-backed horse, it’s a lot of work to build the bridge from the back to front…I would rather not have to start out that way.

The mare I’m looking at tomorrow, from the pictures, has a very lovely neck and nice hind-end and a very nice topline. Her conformation as a rescue is already better than my mare’s that has been in full-work for many years. She has never been raced, so I suspect, she was initially trained and determined to be too slow for the track, then bred for a few years. According to my trainer who has already been out to see her. She has great feet and while she is under weight, has a calm and sweet disposition. She is currently with a great lady who does TB rescue here locally. I’m anxious to get a good look at her tomorrow.

Overall, I like the breed. A lot of my concerns have been fully answered.

[netg]

@TwoTrickPony

Netg–Your TB is lovely. I love that hind end. “Straightness” is not an issue with dressage. That allows for them to piaffe/passage amazingly. My mare (out of an Olympic dressage horse) is far straighter behind than that and she can p/p up the whazoo.

Besides all of the great advice, look for the separation of the hind legs in the trot and canter especially. A horse with a wide V between the hind legs shows the ability to articulate and collect that is needed so much in dressage.

Yep, that separation is something I definitely look at regardless of breed.

I prefer more angulation in the hind legs naturally, but it just meant we had to be aware he naturally traveled with straighter hind legs and needed to build strength to support more bend and sit behind. It can be hard on the hocks if you aren’t extra careful with that conditioning, and for a horse whose early muscle development wasn’t toward dressage work it becomes even more important than one who is started as a dressage horse from the start. I would still happily take a baby clone of my guy for my next horse!

By the way - three year old photos of him look nearly identical to the one JLeeGriffith posted, just as an idea of how they develop over time.

[beowulf]

to be fair, straightness IS an issue with dressage: having inherently straight hind limbs does not mean the horse can automatically handle p/p. that has a lot more to do with the hindquarters, the depth and slope of the femur, the loin connection, and finally, the articulation of the hocks.

being straight behind is not good for soundness and opens up a whole host of soundness susceptibilities like collateral ligament issues, suspensory issues, stifle apparatus issues, SI pain, and hock problems. you do not want a horse that has a straight femur to stifle to hock ratio. a little straight is okay but when it’s a little more than that you’ll be fighting soundness issues that horse’s entire career… take winsome adante, for example…

[Blkarab]

I’m definitely looking at angulation in the hind legs! That is a biggie with me! My Quarter/Arab that I just sold had very straight hind legs and we had nothing but problems with hocks and SI.

[BatCoach]

JLeegriffith - that 3 y/o in your video has talent for sure - that his first ride post track? holy cow I love him!

[Gestalt]

Keep in mind that a horse may have an uphill look, as in high withers, but they really aren’t any more uphill than a horse with a flat top. Look more at the shoulder to hip line.

Pics if you get your horse please!

[Heinz_57]

Not that you mind hot, but do keep in mind that if she’s underweight currently her disposition may spice up a little once she’s healthy and fit!

Fingers crossed it’s a match! Definitely report back with pictures if you buy her!

[Blkarab]

Update

We went out and looked at her yesterday. Very, lovely, lovely horse! Super personality, gorgeous mover, great bone and legs, huge rib-cage (took a 48" girth underweight! (AP saddle)). Sweet, sweet, sweet temperament! However, she is completely green and pretty much unbroken.

My trainer bravely got on and she immediately backed up. No offer to do anything naughty, she was just clueless. She did finally get her to go forward, and she was sweet and kind about the entire ordeal. Trainer hopped off, and the mare immediately sighed, and went over to be scratched. Sooo…with that in mind…I’m totally unsure at this point. On the one-hand…the lack of training does not bother me and I can see her potential to be a very kind and willing horse. On the other hand, we are all wondering if there is an underlying cause as to why she was un-raced and if this is a clue to something unworkable and potentially dangerous. I’m not sure.

If I had my own property and could afford to take on this big of a project, I would have scooped her up yesterday to give it a go. The plan going forward is to give her a few more weeks to gain more weight and see. If I’m still interested, we are going to see if we can set up a 2-week evaluation period with my trainer to see what she knows. It will benefit not only myself, but also the owner. The situation the mare is in now, she is safe, it’s a great place and if she is unrideable, the owner may breed her later on.

I’m going to keep looking and I have my feelers out. I’m in no rush whatsoever…so that is a big plus. In the meantime, I’m enjoying my current mare and gearing up for our first show in May.

[tbchick84]

A lot of underweight TB’s have sweet personalities. Many tend to change once they have some muscle and are feeling good again. Just something to consider. I love TB’s. They’re athletic and have awesome work ethics, but it’s very hard to gauge the mind on an underweight one.

[Blkarab]

Agree, TBchick84. She was underweight, but not overly so. She’s been on quarantine for 30 days already, and has put on some pretty good weight. She’s still a bit ribby, but not super skinny and rough.

IF I decide this is the way I want to go, we will be doing a 2-week minimum evaluation with my trainer at her place first before I take her on. This is such a strange case. We have so many unknowns about this mare’s history so we want to be careful. My trainer is well versed in OTTBs. She has worked with a lot of them, and started a lot of young horses for one of the nice WB farms here. I trust her knowledge in this case, and I’m glad I’m not going at this alone.