Thoroughbreds in Dressage

[Blkarab]

I’m in the process of looking for my next up and coming horse, and while I would love to have a nice, fancy, Warmblood…sadly, that is way out of my budget. :winkgrin:

However, I have been noticing some really nice Thoroughbreds and we have a local rescue that has some very nice horses that have come in, all well within my budget. A project is not an issue, as my mare is still going nice and strong, but I want to start my next horse now…while she is still going really well and before I will need to retire her in the future (she’s 17).

My question is this…what problems/issues are common with Thoroughbreds and what should I avoid? Any bloodlines that are particularly problematic from a confirmation standpoint and/or mental standpoint? Anything with the breed that is a challenge (such as crummy feet, cribbing, hock or stifle issues, etc). I know all horses have their problems and individuals vary, I’m asking for the breed overall.

My current horse is an Arabian, so forward is not a problem (actually, I’m more comfortable with a forward horse than a balky/sluggish horse), and feel that a Thoroughbred may give me what I’m looking for in the taller conformation and athleticism on my measly budget.

TIA.

[Mondo]

I’ve had a number of dressage tbs and 2 of them that I got to doing FEI level work. Both stayed very sound too. Look for short back, heavier bone, uphill conformation and good hock articulation. The Seattle Slew line tend to be extremely trainable. Never met a bad one. If they have Polynesian in the pedigree (would be way back) they are generally pretty good movers. Ditto the Northern Dancer line. You really can’t go wrong with a tb. They are bred to work. Much as I love my WBs, I would never look askance at a good TB. Good luck!

[beowulf]

If you want REAL dressage movement, look for the following names up close in a pedigree - I tried to pair them based on “common” sires/genealogy :

AP Indy / Golden Missile / Dance With Ravens
Unbridled’s Song / Fappiano / Rubiano / Quiet American
Personal Ensign / Personal Flag / Grecian Banner ** very sound line
Private Account / Say Florida Sandy
Storm Cat / Stormy Atlantic / Giant’s Causeway / Stonesider / Freud
Gilded Time / Timeless Moment
Malibu Moon / Black Minnaloushe (SC)
Star Gallant / My Gallant
Rock Talk / Talc (and any sons/daughters)
Sadler’s Wells / El Prado / Galileo
Distinctive Pro
Lear Fan
What A Pleasure
Nijinsky

This list is by no means comprehensive, but off the top of my head, just stallions/mares that I have seen contribute more than once to absolutely better than average TB movement. When I am thinking good moving, I am thinking like this horse’s movement or better: click

In the engine room, it seems to me, these horses usually have several things in common: lots of heavy dosing of Bold Ruler, Nasrullah, Relic, Owen Tudor, Blue Larkspur, and Teddy. Roi Herod and Hail To Reason also consistently seem, to me, to have good moving kids/grandkids around but those are far back in most pedigrees now.

Generally, some of the recent super sires like AP Indy and Giant’s Causeway have been of particular interest to me, having several sons standing that seem to consistently pass on good movement. Stonesider, a Giant’s Causeway son, had several kids local to me and they just blew me away with their movement - even stiff and sore – I am excited to see them out and about this year in the show ring.

As far as bloodlines to avoid… off of the top of my head, the only lines I will not consider are In Excess and his son Indian Charlie. I have not seen a sound horse in a second career from them yet. The rest I take on a case-by-case basis.

Across the board, no two of my TBs have had the same maladies post track - but generally, just get a PPE - rads of pasterns, hocks, and if you have the money, their back and SI area. Not uncommon for TBs to have very sore backs and sometimes it’s work induced, sometimes it’s trauma, sometimes it’s KS. It’s just good to know what you are dealing with.

As far as type, look for something that is built uphill - not just from the withers, but the neck - the elbow to stifles - in movement, they should be moving up hill with good articulation of their hind legs - they should have a swinging, open walk, and active step. I judge the walk the most heavily - I want a fluid, capable stride - if they don’t have a great walk, chances are they won’t have a great canter. Conformation wise, it can be hard beyond that, as I have seen some pretty funny looking TBs be very nice movers - I prefer to see how their bodies move and work before I make an assessment on their conformation.

One thing I do not do is straight behind with a steep/goose croup. I will accept either or, but not both at the same time.

Make sure to go with someone who is experienced picking out horses at the track. It is normal for them to move completely different after a few days of let down - I have one now that was an okay mover during his jog at the track, but an absolutely gorgeous mover now - several months off track and good, consistent work will do so much to change the way a horse uses his body.

[Blkarab]

Thank you both so much! That helps a lot! I know the Arabian lines really well…but not the TBs, this is new territory for me.

Good advise Beowulf on doing graphs of the back and SI joint. I also have an excellent chiropractor that can come out and do a once over before purchase, so if there is an issue, I can get his opinion on if he thinks it’s treatable with chiropractic or if it’s something I should avoid.

I am taking a look at a cute mare next weekend from the local rescue with my trainer. She has some good bone from the photos but I’m not sure about the hocks. My coach was out looking at another horse for a different client and saw this mare and thinks she would be a good dressage prospect for me. She is quiet and thoughtful. I’m getting more information on her this week, and will take a look next weekend.

I’m writing down your list Beowulf! Thank you!

[netg]

If I were looking for a TB, I would basically want a 3 year old version of my guy. Plus all that was said above.

I’m a huge fan of Pleasant Colony descendants for type and temperament. I believe when I was investigating my guy’s pedigree we decided it was the Hyperion which led to the uphill movement and dressagey type.

His trot is his “worst” gait and is still decent, and he gets HUGE overstep in his mediums/extensions (more than 2’ between hoofprints type), he just doesn’t have the suspension you would see in a high quality bred for dressage warmblood. But there are lots of crummy warmbloods out there, too, especially since breeding isn’t an exact science.
This is a tense at liberty trot clip, gives you an idea of how my guy moves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO7pkxOc3Kc

Before he was in dressage condition, so not with the topline development: https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/680386_888963512836_705886017_o.jpg?oh=ff2468a5adac23e42be79861bfb93cba&oe=598D7C7C
Note that the hind legs are straighter than ideal and he seems to have too much shoulder for his neck to handle (a typical eventer trait, it seems!). Those things aren’t a big issue and proper building up the horse helps them. Also note, though, the dip in his SI area. He had injured himself in turnout and it took a lot of chiro and massage to get things back into alignment there and fully comfortable, thus the lack of dressage condition at the time. Most horses still on the track will show that and letting them down, working them straight, etc., will help - but for a horse who has been off the track you want to see a smooth topline. Unfortunately with this pic the background makes his topline look less smooth than it is now, but through good work it has really smoothed out. He also now appears more uphill than he ever has, so I don’t necessarily look for as hugely uphill as he is turning out to be. https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12654259_10100652196624536_4352666548474088830_n.jpg?oh=cb6ea9437d862c1ffea1e162e3608aa1&oe=594D9BC8

If you can look at horses in rehoming situations, try to ride them and see what you find comfortable. If you’re used to arabians you are used to sensitive and responsive. I love that, but many people don’t - and that’s where you may be able to find higher quality that other people aren’t familiar with.

The other thing is the hooves. I’d get on top of them immediately. My guy had underrun heels and sensitive hooves, and they just kept getting worse despite the best efforts of some reasonably good farriers. We ended up having to take him barefoot for a while when he wouldn’t hold a shoe, and using boots a lot. It was never the full answer for him, though, and eventually we switched to EasyShoes. In his case, that was the right answer to make him comfortable and sound, and now he’s more sound than ever.

If a horse hasn’t been treated for ulcers off the track, you can almost guarantee you will need to. Common among TBs, especially ones who had ulcers, is also magnesium deficiency. However, working on that doesn’t necessarily make them calmer. My guy had overly tight, tense muscles which just couldn’t relax, and he was far more comfortable when I rode him at least once a day - getting crabby and ears pinned the longer time stretched between rides. It’s because of the Mg deficiency, and he was minorly tying up. Once I gave him Mg and restored those levels, he discovered how well he could buck. It was worth it for his comfort, but boy did I have a learning curve on that one!

I agree about the walk - a good thoroughbred (once let down from the track) will have an amazing walk with great rhythm, as well as a super rhythmic and usable canter. The trot is likely to be less impressive at first, and take more time to develop. My guy took two years to really seem to get the concept of lengthening the trot - but once he did, he REALLY lengthened. My trainer calls it his standardbred trot because of how much ground he covers - he seems like he would have been faster as a trotter than he was as a distance horse under saddle.

One of the most important things is finding a horse you like. My guy has had so many physical issues to work through, and it has taken a lot of questioning and patience when I would have liked to have just said “oh, he’s fine, just keep pushing and he’ll get it.” I wish I had a chance to get him younger knowing what I know now and being able to take care of all the issues by the time he was 5. At 15 he is more sound than he has ever been, and while he is still VERY high energy, he is also more sane than ever - directing the energy into work instead of explosions.

[beowulf]

Hyperion is definitely one of the “modern” sources of typey, dressage type movement.

I love Pleasant Colony - thanks for adding him to the list.

ETA: I don’t know why I wrote ‘Tap’. Disregard that.

[Somantu]

Beowulf you made my day :D.

As a strictly pleasure rider who takes weekly lessons in a dressage saddle, I was thrilled to see that your recos for ‘good moving’ horses were in my guy’s pedigree. I bought my boy off the track 3.5 years ago.
Zero is by Artie Schiller out of a Golden Missile mare (Just Breezing.)
Many have said he should compete in Dressage, but I don’t show and my part boarder prefers to jump… which he does very well. He’s a great combination of calm temperament and athletic ability.

(Good to know I actually recognized worthwhile qualities when I chose him.)

[Blkarab]

Thanks Netg!

Wow! Everything you described in your guy…is my mare in the smaller package. Oh man, her trot can knock your teeth out when she is tense and rigid. I can work past those things and I know how to bring down a tense horse. She is also more sound at 17 than she was at 5…chiro, ulcer treatment, etc. Sensitive horses just need more patience and thought to figure it out.

Treating for ulcers helped her a lot and we live on magnesium, so that is not a problem either…in fact, I think a lot of horses, especially in this area need it more. (our grass this time of year is very low in mag). We found it really helps with her cycle and keeping her from tying up.

Gorgeous guy!!! My mare was very swayed back, and with a lot of hard work and a fantastic trainer, we have been able to get her back up, and she’s becoming more uphill. I would like to start out with one that is less downhill than she was.

[Blkarab]

Ok…pulled the mare’s pedigree that I’m looking at.

Northern Dancer, Secretariat granddaughter on the sire’s side
Seattle Slew granddaughter on the dam’s side.

She is by Midnight Royalty and Slew City Dancer.

[AppendixQHLover]

I have a War Front son that is an amazing dressage horse. He is built like a brick house and float across the ring. The one thing I will say is get the xrays on the knees even if they flex ok. My guy had a few chips that had to be removed and had I xrayed I probably still would have gotten him but made the price drop dramatically. He was supposed to be a flip but life took over and I still have him. We are just getting back to work after life got in the way and hope to be competing in few months.

[Unfforgettable]

I’ve got a Giants Causeway son, just four and retired sound after just four starts… just too slow. He’s built uphill, nice mover with a huge walk. He’s a sweetheart to work with too. Looking forward to our progress.

[Samantha37]

The biggest thing IMO that you will run into w/ TB conformation is a low set neck which can make dressage more difficult. A LOT of TBs have a fairly low set on neck regardless of the rest of their conformation.

My guy is an Eastern Echo son and has a killer hind leg for dressage. His neck is a little low and he is a little long but he is long everywhere (neck and back) so it balances. Here is a (long, sorry!) video of clips from my last lesson while doing a working student program. His trot isn’t great but he has a fantastic walk and canter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maaUtyjs9_k

[Mondo]

Oh yeah, thanks Beowulf! I forgot about Storm Cat. Years ago I had a Storm Cat son and man was he a beauty! I was jumping back then though and he was my big jumper. But he could MOVE as I recall.

[Blkarab]

Thank you all! I’m going out this weekend to take a look at this girl and see what she is like in person. In her photos, she has a great hind-end and great top-line even though she is out of shape. Her neck-set is a little low, but not too bad…I think with work that can be improved.

The more people I have talked with about Thoroughbreds, the more excited I am about going this direction!

[netg]

I posted it in my brag thread, but what the heck - Tucson on Saturday. https://youtu.be/z_zNB9Qjp7o Tense, anxious, and anticipating, so no collected work because that’s when he balls himself up and gets worse instead of more relaxed. But dang, he looks good and if I didn’t know him I wouldn’t realize he was trying to ball himself up this whole video! I am definitely biased, but I think he’s a beautiful mover.

[Blkarab]

Heinz57…thank for your post. Why no Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, etc. The mare I’m looking at has those lines…and I believe she was also bred for a bit. Her confirmation looks really good (big bone, great hip angle). Just curious mostly.

Hot doesn’t bother me…I have that already in my Arab mare. Ideally, I would like something more level-headed…but feel the WBs might be too quiet. (ironically, I’m beginning to like my Arab’s spunk, lol).

[Heinz_57]

@Blkarab

Heinz57…thank for your post. Why no Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, etc. The mare I’m looking at has those lines…and I believe she was also bred for a bit. Her confirmation looks really good (big bone, great hip angle). Just curious mostly.

Hot doesn’t bother me…I have that already in my Arab mare. Ideally, I would like something more level-headed…but feel the WBs might be too quiet. (ironically, I’m beginning to like my Arab’s spunk, lol).

There was a discussion that included some of those lines recently on the Eventing forum, where I spend most of my time, although it was more speaking about their talent as event horses, not dressage horses, so may not be as relevant. It’s really a personal preference - for every person that says they’ve never met a horse they liked that had X bloodline, another will come along with an example of one that was a success.

Northern Dancer and Seattle Slew are VERY common, they were very popular sires. Unless you are looking at her as a future broodmare, I’d not worry so much about the pedigree, just focus on the horse in front of you!

[beowulf]

@Blkarab

Heinz57…thank for your post. Why no Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, etc. The mare I’m looking at has those lines…and I believe she was also bred for a bit. Her confirmation looks really good (big bone, great hip angle). Just curious mostly.

Hot doesn’t bother me…I have that already in my Arab mare. Ideally, I would like something more level-headed…but feel the WBs might be too quiet. (ironically, I’m beginning to like my Arab’s spunk, lol).

The thing about ND and SS is IMHO they don’t really pass on dressage movement. In SS’s case, I think AP Indy (his son) got his movement from pairing an incredible damline with SS. However, especially now, you can’t throw a stone without hitting a horse with ND or SS within the first page.

I like SS personally, I think he made very trainable horses, but other people disagree. I consistently find (up close) SS horses have more try than most. ND is everywhere but has a lot of good sons on the ground for sport, so I don’t necessarily think it is bad to see him in a pedigree once or twice.

My personal opinion, ND or SS are not lines to avoid for LL pursuits. If you were truly looking for an UL horse, maybe - but that’s a very soft maybe, as these are both big contributors in the sport of racing and you’d miss out on a lot of horses if you only focused on horses without either present in their pedigree. Evaluate the individual first, and then the pedigree.

[Blkarab]

That makes sense. This mare has all 3. She’s a great grand-daughter to Secretariat, ND and SS.

I totally agree about judging the horse in front of you. Which is what I’m doing. I do know that the pedigree can clue you into temperament and ability to a certain point. Since I’m not very familiar with TB lines any insight is helpful.

Overall, I feel the characteristics of the breed will be a good match for what I’m looking for. More so than a lot of the WBs.

[EventerAJ]

Great advice here. I’ll echo the comments about Pleasant Colony and AP Indy. Also, I’ve noticed the Roberto shoulder (through Kris S, Dynaformer, etc) often has an uphill athletic feel.

Don’t be too scared by old injuries, depending on how they have healed. Old, set minor bows, suspensory strains, and ankle rounding may not have any impact on a dressage career. If the horse has raced well on the old injury, and is currently sound and moving well, I would not be too scared. I’ve had two retraining projects with old soft tissue tears that were properly rehabbed and my sport horse vet felt confident in the horses’ future careers in dressage and/or hunters. A good prepurchase exam is ALWAYS a priority.

My current TB Makeover horse is SUPER cool and will be a fancy guy with a few more months’ work. He’s by Bernstein (Storm Cat) out of a Coronado’s Quest mare (Dynaformer 2nd damsire). Big shoulder, uphill, graded stakes placed on turf. Won’t be an eventer as he has an old suspensory injury and I feel XC is too much of a risk, but he’ll do well in dressage. Video after 25 training rides: https://youtu.be/xjy_h2ZFZZ4