Thought experiment - boarders....would you pay by the service?

That was why I was describing the more customized plan (or trying to, anyway). The minimums I specified were based on the easy keeper, and then the minimums for the types of grain were based on the minimum nutrition on the label.

What usually happens in MY region (not speaking to others - clearly they’ve gotten the memo) is that barn owners go based on the average - you bought 500 bags of feed last month, 600 bags of bedding (or whatever), labor was whatever, and you add that all up plus all the other ancillary costs, divide it by the number of stalls et. voila - you have a price. That never seemed fair.

I love the visual of the burnt rubber :slight_smile:

My expectation was that this would cause more consternation for barn owners than boarders. Do you upcharge for things like alfalfa? Or is that included in your average?

It’s not about “fair to the horse owner”.

The ‘it all averages out’ eats into the BOs profits. It all averages out = no money is made.

And that’s with non-existent margins to start with.

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Well, that’s if barn owners don’t add a line for profit, but you’re absolutely right - I was thinking more on the horse owner side - people getting priced out.

I don’t upcharge for ANYTHING. Now, my business is a bit unique: I specialize solely in the retirement of medically complex horses. I take the ones with enough health issues for most farms to say no thank you and I love every minute of it. Right now, I have one with DSLD, two with severe Cushing’s, one who has foundered in all 4 feet (very stable, but will turn with the slightest change in feed), one with an idiopathic neurological condition, two with severe cervical spine arthritis (both well-managed with Equioxx, Legend, and annual injections, but have to be monitored carefully), one of my own who has had 3 colic surgeries and loves to get a belly ache if you look at him sideways, two with previously broken carpel bones, one with significant kissing spine, and a donkey with the immune system and tissue integrity of a terminal cancer patient. The only healthy/rideable ones on my farm are my 3 personal show horses and my retired jumper who is just broken in the brain but his body looks great :upside_down_face: :rofl:

So my business model works off of the assumption that all of my clients require premium feed, the farm is in Florida and we have incredible pasture, so while we only feed hay about 5 months out of the year, they all get either top quality alfalfa or a grass mix which are the same price, everyone is on some sort of supplement (owner provided), I don’t want flies everywhere so I include Simplifly in the board, I never want to figure out how much shampoo/fly spray/show sheen/whatever a single horse uses, so I have that built into my pricing, and I know what it costs to keep my employees covered week to week. The only things I charge extra for are extensive injury/wound/illness care or if a horse needs to be stalled for any reason besides a hurricane.

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Even if they add a “line for profit”, the messy horse costs more in labor and materials than the tidy one. Make money on the tidy one, lose or break even on the messy one.

The BO should be making a profit on every horse in the barn, as they deserve to.

The guy at the car detailing place doesn’t say “oh it all averages out” when a car owned by an absolute slob pulls in the shop. They get billed accordingly.

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That is not even close to what I was saying.

If I am paying extra to have extra bedding, I should not have to deal with those things. If I am paying for board and you are OK paying your cleaner to toss out lots of good bedding, that is on you. If I am paying for extra because of that, that is not OK.

It is a management issue, but the boarder has no control over it so again, no one wants to pay for extra bedding just to have the stall cleaner toss it all out so you end up with no extra bedding.

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many are mixing up terms or not understanding the terms

Income is the total amount of money earned, while profit is the amount of money left after subtracting expenses from revenue… if there is no excess income there is no profit to be had

That makes TOTAL sense. In this case, the model I was suggesting (which was up front customization) would not work for you.

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Oh exactly, I completely agree.

I’m so confused.

The boarder doesn’t have any control over it either way, do they?

Right - agreed.

So when I was outlining typical board calculations according to what people do here in THIS region, people take those final numbers (the full tally), add a profit margin % (if they are good businesspeople) and average it across all of the boarders.

This means that the low needs horses are subsidizing the high needs horses. Which is ok in a lot of businesses - it’s the way many SaaS businesses work. But the horse industry is struggling, people are getting priced out etc. etc.

So - I think what @endlessclimb was saying, was to use the low needs horses as the set board price, and then add surcharges for the high needs horses.

What I was originally proposing was something very similar (though yes - omg, I said it wrong LOL), I just didn’t include feed and hay in the original calculation as I was trying to provide further clarity and transparency for boarders.

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No.
The boarder does not have control over it either way.

But the first way I am paying base board price that includes bedding that I assume is to a depth that I like because I did a walk thru before agreeing to board there, at a board rate I approved.
If the barn owner is more than willing to pay their worker to toss out good bedding to meet the agreed bedding needs, that is on them (again, at a board rate that I thought was fair for what I was getting).

If the board price agreed on includes only a small amount of bedding, and I am paying extra money to have extra bedding, but your employee tosses out all of my extra bedding so the stall does not end up being more deeply bedded, that is an issue.

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Gotcha. I see where you’re coming from.

I think what I see happening (again, in my region, other regions perhaps with more options are different) is that people choose barns because they like 3/4 of the things but there are these ONE or TWO things that they wish were different and they can’t change. That causes a lot of grumbling. Or the horse gets hock sores and they didn’t expect that, but they’ve now built up a relationship with the barn, and they don’t necessarily want to leave but they want change. Or the barn help changes…or whatever. That type of change I have seen a lot. People think they are ok with something, but then the circumstances change and they understandably want something different - but leaving a barn is a lot more like moving your house than it is going to a different restaurant.

Usually what happens is if the boarder is liked, they don’t get charged, the barn owner eats it, and if they aren’t, they get evicted (being candid here based on conversations with other BOs in the area).

Bedding is an interesting subject, because we all have SUCH wildly varying opinions about what is adequate. We also have wildly varying opinions about what a clean stall is etc. I came from a very strict background that recommended and taught rubber gloves to finalize picking all the poo. That is NOT normal in the US and that part has been made very apparent to me when I train people :smiley:

As a person who has done the billing for a 100+ horse high caliber facility that had a LOT of individually done services- NO WAY in hell would I do this. The margin for error, as well as complaint and chaos on the side of both the barn owner and the horse owner would be huge.

PS-if you ever told me to pick stalls wearing a rubber glove, you’d probably end up eating that rubber glove lol

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I’ll add one more long-form thought to the conversation, because this HAS been good, despite the many false starts and miscommunications.

When I had my barn open - I absolutely tracked what each boarder used when they were here. Not after the fact initially, but as a calculation up front first in a spreadsheet and then I custom built a system as noted above when I was trying to manage the barn from afar and struggling to get good inventory numbers. Sadly, it did not cost me the same as an indoor arena. It took me about 3 weeks worth of programming effort and to run it as a SaaS app that my employee could access cost me ~$90 in costs. I built in invoice payments and also auto-billing based on things like training rides etc. Again, you don’t have to sit and track it, after you get off the horse, you pull up your phone, click the horse, click training ride, jot down some notes and save it.

I don’t have it active for sale for other people right now, so this is NOT an ad (although I’m thinking of OSSing it, so if anyone is interested I can help them get it up on their own cloud system), but I did write the system, and did have thoughts that maybe it would be useful to others. Had it cost hundreds of thousands, I probably would have chosen the indoor because that does influence boarder choice of a certain type of boarder (the sporthorse boarder) that enjoyed the level of care that I was accustomed to providing. And my salary in tech, even as a CEO at my level, is not an indoor in 3 weeks. Again, mores the pity. Man would that make life easier!

Anyway, if Horse A was supposed to get 25 lbs of hay per day and Horse B was supposed to get 15 lbs, that went into my spreadsheet. Same thing with grain, supplements, etc. etc. That fed my printable feed charts and I could print off my stall placards. I did this because I got tired of employees saying they couldn’t read my handwriting or the board getting out of date because someone texted me asking for something, and by the time it came time for dinner I didn’t have it updated on the board because I still had a life.

I also tracked meds, farrier work, veterinary work etc. even if I didn’t pay for it. That was mostly because when the vet would come for an owner invariably I would be asked when xyz was done, so I wanted to be sure I could pull it up quickly, but also the vet would ask when I did xyz and I’d always go “uhhhh…idk…check your records?” and that was embarrassing. Nice to be able to pull it up and see on horse B that I had done xyz on x date and here was the follow up care.

There are other things that I characterized and put into my system which was initially just spreadsheets - such as ease of handling, messiness, destructiveness, etc etc. I used those as multipliers. So I knew down to the penny what each horse cost me in both financial numbers but also in stress on a daily, weekly, monthly and annual basis, as well as what the income from each horse was as well as any lessons or other “extras” that I did offer such as yoga or special ride days were participated in.

I didn’t expose it to the boarders, as I had one set full board price, but that was something I absolutely tracked because as a good business owner in other businesses (not boarding as it appears to be too hard to do in boarding businesses from the feedback I’m getting), you want to know which customers are your best customers and optimize for those. It’s not always obvious, because it’s not JUST the customers that cost you the least. It’s the ones that buy your services at an optimum price, are loyal, and appreciative. Without that data, we’re usually subject to bias based on who we talked to last. Having data to track is just normal in my other businesses.

When I closed my barn because of the move, I built in the bedding tracking. I built that screen so that the helper can track by clicking the horse, and a big plus/minus button, sensitive enough to do with their gloves on, to say how many bags they added and correct their own errors. I also then backed that up with asking them to do a monthly inventory. I’ve already stated why I did that, but it was mostly because I struggled getting the staff to do as they needed to do from 600 miles away, so I employed methods from corporate to help me out. It worked and I no longer had the “We have no bedding left” emergencies or the “Why do we still have bedding left, I ordered it 3 months ago” suspicions.

So - this is why I said “don’t worry about tracking” to barn owners because I wanted to consider boarder reactions to the upfront customizability of the boarding and the ability to have some insight, but I also didn’t want to freak out barn owners with the need to track every little thing. I do, and that’s my privilege coming from a background like mine, but that doesn’t mean they need to follow suit.

When people say they want barns to run more like businesses - this IS how non-ag businesses are run. They know down to every sesame seed how many are on your bun. With service companies, they know to the minute how long your car is in the shop. It’s the way to make really good, data driven, decisions and optimize profits.

With that I’ll say - thanks for all the input folks - lots of interesting discussions :slight_smile:

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LOL - that was my reaction when I went through the BHS program at a barn and they handed me gloves and a small muck basket to clean straw stalls.

I don’t make my staff do this, to be clear - but I do tell them the story! Americans don’t want to get all the bits of poo out quite in the same way.

we have had horses that were tested to be allergic to pine shavings, we ended up using shredded straw (also known as chopped straw) for those, cost was nearly triple that of pine shavings

Also if paying by the bag for any bedding there should be additional fees for disposal of the extra bedding verses the base amount.

The only extensively itemized billing I can remember getting was from hospitals and none were ever correct as even though “itemized” they defaulted to expected uses charging for things that were normally used. There were items being billed that were not used and we could prove it, so when challenged those charges were removed

As outlined by OP I can easily envision getting a monthly bill of about two or three hundred pages of itemized items to review with no way of really knowing if the statement was correct.

I have heard of a barn with expensive footing that required this when the indoor was picked when a horse pooped (but not actual stalls).

As someone who works as an independent contractor and often has to be on multiple project management systems of companies for which I work, this “pay by the service” model gets an absolute fucking no way from me. I waste so much time with bureaucratic bullshit having to itemize things. The labor cost alone keeping track of services and monitoring wouldn’t make it pay for the barn owner.

Also, every horse owner has an opinion. The more options you give, the more managing different people’s opinions you get, and the more input and grief the BO is going to get about people wanting more opt-ins or opt-outs.

The only thing I have seen work is having two or three-tiered services. Usually:

  1. Training board (rides by trainer, maybe lessons, full-service care, stall, turnout)
  2. Full board (maybe lessons, full-service care, stall, turnout)
  3. Pasture board (turnout, run-in shed that is picked out by barn workers).

Anything that’s added on is very much a one-off, like clipping, braiding, blanket changes (if not included and while the owner is away).

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Yes - when I was talking about line item billing I was really talking about being able to say “I want 3 extra bags of shavings per week” and then on the invoice it would say “3 extra bags of shavings per week”. I was NOT talking about showing the whole kebab to people, although that’d be absolutely doable with my system.