Thought experiment - boarders....would you pay by the service?

[GraceLikeRain]

A simplified version of this that seems to work well is that the base rate and services fully meet your expectations of care at your barn. The extras are itemized.

I’m so horse poor it’s stupid. The only way I semi manage is having some fixed costs. I don’t really care about saving $15 on turnout because it rained and then plus $10 for the extra stall and then minus $2 because we dropped grain a 1/8 lb or whatever. I want to know my board rate is $X. It feels like penny pinching even if the heart of it is transparency.

When barns have openings in my area it’s a management issue not cost. Most BO are more abrasive, burnout, and angry than they realize they let on. The golden retriever BO and BMs keep a waiting list even when the care is significantly suboptimal. This is a hobby. Coming out at 5 to someone who just wants to bitch about costs and effort completely drains the experience. People will pay for the customer service of a positive and simple process. COTH tends to have a more educated audience that’s likely more willing to tolerate human frustrations for equine well being.

Provide lovely customer service, be able to channel golden retriever even after Dobby broke a fence and the farrier took an extra two hours and I bet you can charge $200 more and have a full barn.

[sascha]

@Alterration

I was getting monthly deliveries to support the horses that I had.

Even doing it that way can be worked out. “I need X bales for the year. I’d like to get monthly delivery. Can you please let me know price per bale including storage for the year and delivery? And once we’ve worked it out, can we please make a written agreement so neither of us are left hanging?” Maybe you need to pay for 2 months up front (so your final month is “free”) but there are definitely lots of different ways to work out a steady supply of hay for a year at a guaranteed price.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

How does itemizing in this manner change what the market will bear.

Because the issue really is that keeping horses, especially in high cost of living areas, is becoming untenable except for the wealthy. Is this a way to cater to their specific needs and attract that particular clientele?

Itemizing doesn’t change that high property values, high cost of supplies, high fuel costs, have just driven the cost of keeping horses beyond what many can afford.

I don’t disagree at all that the landscape, especially in the high cost of living areas, is bleak. Horse ownership as we knew it in the past is very rapidly changing and disappearing. But I don’t see how more detail on the monthly bill will change that.

First, if it is demanded that the business run more like other businesses, then maybe other barns will follow suit because consumers will expect barns to be run like businesses. Except the bottom feeders, those will always exist.

I think this postulation of keeping horses being untenable except for the wealthy is untrue - as a percent of income, boarding costs have not kept up. Yes - there are many people who are horse poor, but they’d be horse poor anyway.

[Alterration]

@sascha

I see the issue as more of barn owners not having the guts to raise prices sufficiently, rather than a problem of being forced to subsidize boarders. YOU set your rates. If your rates are not high enough to cover what you need them to cover (all expenses to run your barn and pay for your horse/s, or whatever you decide you need them to cover) either raise your rates sufficiently or pack it in.

I raised my rates 4x in graduated increases in the several years I was open before packing it in, mostly so that I could do some renovations that were much easier without horses in the barn. I did start to feel badly about it, sure.

[Alterration]

@GraceLikeRain

When barns have openings in my area it’s a management issue not cost. Most BO are more abrasive, burnout, and angry than they realize they let on.

This is the problem I’d like to solve.

People will do lots of things for money. But when the money isn’t there, and the work is really hard, people will start to get burnt out. How do they hire more staff? They charge more. But it’s hard to charge more when the going rate is cheap in the area, and boarders don’t understand that the answer isn’t working the barn owner 23 hours a day.

[FjordBCRF]

@Alterration

I’m just trying to determine whether there would be a palate for having it all itemized so that you’re paying for exactly what you get.

As a boarder with some experience of this type of thing in a co-op, this sounds like a PITA for everyone involved. What is your goal with this? It reads a bit like you want the boarders to appreciate the amount of money that goes into the business and providing the service. If so, it’s not just the ala cart that play into the equation; so does mortgage, insurance, equipment/maintenance, repairs, services such as electricity/trash/manure removal…snow plowing in certain regions.

Why not just provide your boarders with a financial statement…annually? Quarterly? that breaks it all down, similar to how an HOA does? Certainly not something everyone would want to do, but if transparency is part of what you’re after thats a lot less messy.

Looking at a lot of the items you list, they cost more in terms of time, which sure can add up, but if you have to have staff bringing in horses at any and all intervals you are either then paying them more or losing out on your own time. That doesn’t make sense.

[sascha]

@Alterration

if it is demanded that the business run more like other businesses

When you go to the tack shop, are you given an itemized list of what that item actually cost the store owner (including duties, shipping, their trip to the trade show to pick out the item, the cost of running the lights in the store (lower in summer if the windows are good!), the cost of the security system, the cost of employees, etc.) plus their mark up? Do you quiz them on whether they stick to keystone or have some other way of figuring out their mark up?

No. You either pay their price or try to get the item cheaper elsewhere. If you like the store and the service there, you’ll likely just ante up even if you know you could get that hoofpick for $1.75 somewhere else rather that paying $2.50 at your favourite shop.

[Alterration]

@FjordBCRF

Why not just provide your boarders with a financial statement…annually? Quarterly? that breaks it all down, similar to how an HOA does? Certainly not something everyone would want to do, but if transparency is part of what you’re after thats a lot less messy.

That’s a neat idea.

I think part of it, as I was cleaning, that came up for me was the variation in horse care. For instance, when I had horses boarded here, I had the 14h horse who was an air fern, a horse who could only be out an hour before he freaked out, and the 17h super senior that ate me out of house and home and kept a terribly messy stall.

Seemed unfair for the 14h air fern’s owner to help to subsidize the super senior. So I was just trying to think of ways to change the conversation.

[sascha]

@FjordBCRF

Why not just provide your boarders with a financial statement

Because it’s none of their business? (besides it’s likely to make them feel horrible when they discover that their hobby is being subsidized, OR you’re going to have a bunch of boarders saying, “I bet I could get all these supplies cheaper. We’re being ripped off.”

[FjordBCRF]

@sascha

@FjordBCRF

Why not just provide your boarders with a financial statement

Because it’s none of their business? (besides it’s likely to make them feel horrible when they discover that their hobby is being subsidized, OR you’re going to have a bunch of boarders saying, “I bet I could get all these supplies cheaper. We’re being ripped off.”

It is if the BO wants it to be.

[Alterration]

@sascha

When you go to the tack shop, are you given an itemized list of what that item actually cost the store owner (including duties, shipping, their trip to the trade show to pick out the item, the cost of running the lights in the store (lower in summer if the windows are good!), the cost of the security system, the cost of employees, etc.) plus their mark up? Do you quiz them on whether they stick to keystone or have some other way of figuring out their mark up?

No. You either pay their price or try to get the item cheaper elsewhere. If you like the store and the service there, you’ll likely just ante up even if you know you could get that hoofpick for $1.75 somewhere else rather that paying $2.50 at your favourite shop.

No - but you do at the vet, at the doctor, etc.

I’d argue that boarding is more like the vet/doctor than it is the tack shop.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

First, if it is demanded that the business run more like other businesses, then maybe other barns will follow suit because consumers will expect barns to be run like businesses. Except the bottom feeders, those will always exist.

You think that the way boarding businesses bill will change what the market can bear? The market will bear what the market will bear. Changing the way the barn bills doesn’t change what the market will bear.

It seems you’re proposing itemizing as a way for barns en masse to charge more. But you also don’t think that barns in your area CAN charge more and survive. You can’t have it both ways–there is either room to move up in price in the market, or there is not. What’s broken out on the bill isn’t the lynch pin here.

[Alterration]

@FjordBCRF

It is if the BO wants it to be.

I am going for alternative methods, because I DO think more transparency would help. Absolutely.

[GraceLikeRain]

Charge what it takes to run a barn with a smile and pay people a wage that keeps them there.

Similarly, I’ve seen a LOT of barn workers who stay at a place that is chronically underpaying them but management is kind and positive. There are barns that pay 30-50% more and blame the workers/work ethic/etc and honestly, it’s them. I know them and lord knows I wouldn’t muck stalls or turnout for any price.

If you can’t find people and can’t keep boarders and are sure it isn’t you. Then there doesn’t seem to be much of a forward path. I’d recommend some inward reflection and running the numbers to know what would make it feel worth it to you so you wanted to do it.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

You think that the way boarding businesses bill will change what the market can bear? The market will bear what the market will bear. Changing the way the barn bills doesn’t change what the market will bear.

It seems you’re proposing itemizing as a way for barns en masse to charge more. But you also don’t think that barns in your area CAN charge more and survive. You can’t have it both ways–there is either to move up in price in the market, or there is not. What’s broken out on the bill isn’t the lynch pin here.

I think what the market will bear (e.g. what people will pay for the privilege of having their horse boarded) vs. what the market will bear because of artificial price suppression based on perception and barn owner fear are two separate things.

[Alterration]

@GraceLikeRain

Charge what it takes to run a barn with a smile and pay people a wage that keeps them there.

Similarly, I’ve seen a LOT of barn workers who stay at a place that is chronically underpaying them but management is kind and positive. There are barns that pay 30-50% more and blame the workers/work ethic/etc and honestly, it’s them. I know them and lord knows I wouldn’t muck stalls or turnout for any price.

If you can’t find people and can’t keep boarders and are sure it isn’t you. Then there doesn’t seem to be much of a forward path. I’d recommend some inward reflection and running the numbers to know what would make it feel worth it to you so you wanted to do it.

I was full before I ejected everyone to do the repairs. My problem was not my own barn.

My problem is the industry. 6 barns in my area closed in the past year.

That’s a lot.

[sascha]

@Alterration

No - but you do at the vet, at the doctor, etc.

Are you boarding horses for a day or two at a time or are you hoping to keep your boarders for years at a time?

Boarding horses is actually not a lot like going to the vet or boarding dogs unless you are a rehab facility that provides short-term care with specific services added on to the DAILY bill. And even then, you’re going to see a bill that says something like “Daily care $50/day for X days, Swim Therapy $30/day for X days, Equicizer $15/day for X days, etc.”

But you know what? If you want to make boarding horses as difficult on yourself and as confusing as possible for your customers - knock yourself out!

[Alterration]

@sascha

But you know what? If you want to make boarding horses as difficult on yourself and as confusing as possible for your customers - knock yourself out!

No. I want a dying industry to survive.

I see very few alternatives proposed, just a lot of very emotional expressions here. Really interesting.

[FjordBCRF]

@Alterration

That’s a neat idea.

I think part of it, as I was cleaning, that came up for me was the variation in horse care. For instance, when I had horses boarded here, I had the 14h horse who was an air fern, a horse who could only be out an hour before he freaked out, and the 17h super senior that ate me out of house and home and kept a terribly messy stall.

Seemed unfair for the 14h air fern’s owner to help to subsidize the super senior. So I was just trying to think of ways to change the conversation.

As someone with a special needs air fern myself, I pay the full price for full care AND provide all of his feed (minus hay) myself. I do source his hay though so I know what he needs for a year and what the price tag is. I wouldn’t ask to knock $40 or whatever off my board, but if that was an option, I’d certainly take it!

The first barn I was at in 2020, the BO was pretty transparent. She had to raise board/trail fees a couple times while I was there, and while she didn’t do a big breakout, she did say how much the prices of certain things increased. I appreciate that because it helps me understand the industry better. A lot of people were still squirrley about it, but you’re always going to have that.

I do think the average boarder is very disconnected from the costs and inner workings of pretty much everything. Most boarders I know couldn’t tell you what and how much their horse eats.

[sascha]

@Alterration

No. I want a dying industry to survive.

Charge enough to cover all your costs and whatever else you feel your business should cover. If it lives, it lives. If it doesn’t, it’s because people can’t afford it and no amount of creative billing (aka customer annoyance billing) is going to fix it, sadly.