Where I live not much dog training around, PetSmart and a couple of individuals who practice “balanced” dog training. While I do like some of the individual’s concepts it really bothers me all of their training involves prong collars and E collars regardless of the dogs. I need some help with one of my fosters with specific behaviors that I need instilled and have reached out to one of these trainers but I am not fond of prong collars never have used one and feel E collars can be useful in certain circumstances but not for every day general training. I like the NILIF concepts and use reward based training for my fosters and personal dogs. Wanted to see what others thoughts were on this “balanced” training.
I have no problem with the use of prong or e-collars, but I have a lot of problems with some of the people that use them.
I would not choose a trainer based on what equipment they use (or don’t use)…or how they describe their training (e.g. “balanced” training) but on how they train dogs. I would have a problem with someone that puts an e-collar on every dog that walks through the door, especially as e-collars aren’t useful for many aspects of training (and very useful for others).
If you have a bad vibe about a trainer, don’t use them. My trainer uses a “balanced” method (although I’ve never heard her use that phrase)…she starts everything with positive reinforcement, but she also teaches other things like “force fetch” (compulsory retrieve), etc…but only in certain situations and on specific dog/handler pairs.
I have both e-collars and prong collars in my equipment collection, but I don’t use them for everything. That would just be stupid (and ineffective).
I guess I would consider myself to be a balanced trainer but I haven’t ever heard it called that. The R+ trainers can be a bit nutters in my experience going so far as to say you should never say the word no when dealing with an animal. I haven’t used prong collars but have used choke chains properly with good results when necessary. I will say that clicker training is often much faster than correcting the no and rewarding the yes.
I am one of the “nutters”. I pretty much only use +R and -R anymore. I don’t use prongs, and I don’t use or recommend e-collars. I also don’t recommend underground fencing (which is an e collar with a transmitter to a fence). My most recent client came to me via the vet, who had this dog arrive at her clinic with severe nerve damage from an e collar/underground fencing system that got “stuck” on high and would not turn off. The defective unit fried this young dog so badly it was touch and go for about 2 weeks, if he would have to have the leg amputated.
“balanced training” is not something I’d recommend.
I quit training with a well known service dog training organization over the ear pinch retrieve they used. Especially after going to a client home to find out the dog placed there had lost her retrieve. She was a golden. So…how’s that working for you? The +R retrievers I have are very very good, including the 7# Pap bitch.
It’s not that I’m all about the treats, or that I never say no, I do. Often in fact. But I no longer use +P.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;8289765]
I am one of the “nutters”. I pretty much only use +R and -R anymore. I don’t use prongs, and I don’t use or recommend e-collars.
I quit training with a well known service dog training organization over the ear pinch retrieve they used. Especially after going to a client home to find out the dog placed there had lost her retrieve. She was a golden. So…how’s that working for you? The +R retrievers I have are very very good, including the 7# Pap bitch.
It’s not that I’m all about the treats, or that I never say no, I do. Often in fact. But I no longer use +P.[/QUOTE]
I know we’ve gone back and forth about this before, but as with everything - it depends on the purpose, the trainer and the dog. I agree that e-collars are not necessary to train “routine” commands (come, sit, stay, etc.) but in field competition, they are extremely useful. I believe it is very possible to reliably train some hunting dogs without an e-collar, but I wouldn’t consider the use of an e-collar to be inhumane in general - depending on HOW it is used, of course. No frying necessary.
In obedience competition? Probably not necessary, nor would ear pinches be necessary for most dogs either. Put them in a different scenario - retrieving birds in competition - and it’s a different game altogether. Lots more adrenaline and prey drive involved than dumbbells.
I am not going to go so far as to say never an e-collar, but the folks I know who use them successfully use them as a refining or proofing tool. It’s certainly not used early on in training.
Not a fan of the prong collar. I think there are better options. I’m pretty much with threedogpack in being one of the “nutters” Absence of reward is the extent of “punishment” for my dogs. And you can see Torri, if she doesn’t get the cookie assess the situation and try something different. If she misses a weave pole and thus gets no cookie, she turns around and puts herself back through the poles. I also audit classes online with Fenzi and work on our play skills as a training tool. I am blessed with access to a trainer I adore. And under her system I’d have to think hard about how many of the folks I train with have bids to the AKC Nationals (Top Five in each breed). So, we’re doing something right.
I agree with previous posters, in that I would steer clear of a trainer who use prong or shock collars with every dog, for basic obedience training.
Not that such tools do not have their place…but you can accomplish so much more, more quickly, and with less undesirable fallout, using more positive means.
[QUOTE=S1969;8289857]
I know we’ve gone back and forth about this before, but as with everything - it depends on the purpose, the trainer and the dog. I agree that e-collars are not necessary to train “routine” commands (come, sit, stay, etc.) but in field competition, they are extremely useful. I believe it is very possible to reliably train some hunting dogs without an e-collar, but I wouldn’t consider the use of an e-collar to be inhumane in general - depending on HOW it is used, of course. No frying necessary.
In obedience competition? Probably not necessary, nor would ear pinches be necessary for most dogs either. Put them in a different scenario - retrieving birds in competition - and it’s a different game altogether. Lots more adrenaline and prey drive involved than dumbbells.[/QUOTE]
the original poster never said a word about field work. So I don’t know if that applies here.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;8290089]
the original poster never said a word about field work. So I don’t know if that applies here.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not, but I don’t like the “never” or “always” concept in training any animal…dogs, horses, whatever. Or kids, for that matter. 
I have a prong collar and have used it to work on heeling and found it effective. But my trainer is very specific about how/when it could be used. I also have an e-collar and use it every day to backup off-leash recall. But in both cases, a lot of training is put into the concept before using either - it’s definitely more of a refinement tool, not a “zap 'em” or “hurt 'em” tool when they don’t respond. Maybe a good comparison is spurs or a crop. I rarely use my e-collar, but I have it ready in case I need it.
The problem is not the collar, but the training (or lack thereof) behind it. I once went to an obedience class that taught you to literally yank your dog off its feet when it didn’t heel. No prong collars, but that is certainly no better - and probably was a lot worse…actually my dog’s chiropractor thinks that training a dog to “heel” can be one of the worst things for their spines/neck. And interestingly, a lot of field trainers teach dogs to heel using only an e-collar and not on leash at all.
So…my point is not to judge the trainer only by their equipment but their actual training. And, of course, what works for your dog.
S1969. This is what I actually wrote.
I pretty much only use +R and -R anymore. I don’t use prongs, and I don’t use or recommend e-collars.
please notice the words “pretty much” and the lack of always or never.
[QUOTE=S1969;8290121]
The problem is not the collar, but the training (or lack thereof) behind it. [/QUOTE]
the problem in the example I used for the fried dog, actually WAS the collar. It did not work as it was intended. It did not turn off.
I have never fried a dog with a treat.
No field work needed for my foster, though she is a mean mouser! The trainer I reached out to uses a prong and e-collar on EVERY dog and rather quickly too. Not much basics in there before using the e-collar. Thing is, I do like how most of the dogs turn out. She had a very fearful former foster of mine and she brought her around very nicely to a much more confident dog. BUT saw video of her working with a fearful GSD on e-collar, he was not responding well IMO. What I do not like is the blanket use of the tools on every dog. I know she has a program, but in my experience each dog should be treated as an individual. I have gotten a good bit already on my foster using praise and treats, very food motivated. She is a good girl who just wants to please (see pickle thread, Sage there). I want her considered for the Animal Farm Foundation as a service dog and they have specific behaviors they want to see and want you to work with a trainer to show these behaviors. Most we have done and do on a regular basis, a few not so much. Walking in crowded city type surroundings (I live in the country) and small children approaching crate (she loves any and all people, but I have no small children available) and loud noises like fire alarm how they react to the noise. I may just go the Pet Smart route just to get her in such busy environment, lots going on there and she wants to greet every person enthusiastically (one of her issues, that and getting wound about going for a ride in the truck) see if the trainer there can help.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;8290139]
the problem in the example I used for the fried dog, actually WAS the collar. It did not work as it was intended. It did not turn off.
I have never fried a dog with a treat.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but it was a malfunctioning electric fence, not a training collar, so it’s not even relevant.
And your statement “I don’t use prongs, I don’t use or recommend e-collars” is exactly my point. Do you recommend yanking a dog off their feet with a buckle collar? No. But it’s not because of the type of collar, it’s because of the training.
People should not assume people that use e-collars or prongs are bad, nor should they assume those that don’t use them are GOOD. That’s all.
[QUOTE=khall;8290208]
I may just go the Pet Smart route just to get her in such busy environment, lots going on there and she wants to greet every person enthusiastically (one of her issues, that and getting wound about going for a ride in the truck) see if the trainer there can help.[/QUOTE]
I actually took my show dog (well, puppy at the time) to PetSmart deliberately. I wanted a busy, noisy, smelly, food-laden environment with barking dogs, and potentially some ill-behaved dogs to have to work aorund. I was preparing for conformation shows, which are exactly that – lots and lots (and lots) of food/bait everywhere, barking dogs, spectators, PA systems, etc.
I was pleasantly surprised to find the trainer very well-versed in clicker training and positive reinforcement, and he was also very receptive of my using his class for my own purposes which was nice (I had been to several obedience classes before, so this wasn’t as much for me as for my dog.) Not only did he not care that I wasn’t going to work on certain skills (e.g. I wasn’t reinforcing “sit” at the time, but substituted “stand” instead), he had a lot of good suggestions for me and was totally into helping me proof my dog for a lot of scenarios (judges exams, other dogs being nearby, etc.)
Check it out, and see if it matches your goals. It did for me, and the trainer that worked there was really great.
Khall, I have had my say and I stand by what I posted. I would not use a prong, and I would really avoid e collars, since you are pointed toward service dog work. Since you like how the dogs turn out with the trainer who uses them on each dog, why don’t you the trainer to show you how s/he trains it and then modify to suit your preferences in training styles. You may not have to use the same equipment to train these behaviors
Sue Aislby trains her own service dogs and I have personally seen how accurate they are with the skills she needs and I know she is a +R trainer. In fact, for her present service dog, she kept a blog. That might be helpful to read
My issue with the use of prong/e-collars on all dogs is kind of - if what you have is a hammer, then everything starts looking like a nail, you know?
I’ve never needed to use either myself and I’m not sure I’d want to except in very special circumstances, but I’d be willing to hear out someone’s logic on why it was the right tool for the job in a special situation. However, teaching a dog normal basics and manners does not seem like a special situation that should require that kind of extra hardware. At the very least I’d need to have a serious conversation to understand how the trainer used the collars and why they went on every dog before I’d sign my dog up for training with that person.
(I do like choke chains, but not for the ‘choke’ effect. For some reason - perhaps the movement of the chain? - quite consistently dogs who have never been ‘gotten’ with the chain are still more responsive to a wiggle of a leash attached to a choke chain than the wiggle of a leash on a normal flat collar. So when I’m working on what will eventually become off-leash stuff, I like to use a long training leash and a choke chain - mostly it hangs slack, but if the dog is not responding to a voice command or recall because it’s gotten distracted by something, just taking up enough contact to give it a bit of a wiggle does the trick of going ‘hey, you, remember me?’ and the dog tunes back in. So far it’s worked out to be effective and easy on the dog.) (As I said, though, I don’t use it to actually do the ‘choke’ part. The chain never really gets particularly tight. I think it’s just that it’s got a fair amount of movement to it and some noise?)
[QUOTE=threedogpack;8290341]
Khall, I have had my say and I stand by what I posted. I would not use a prong, and I would really avoid e collars, since you are pointed toward service dog work. Since you like how the dogs turn out with the trainer who uses them on each dog, why don’t you the trainer to show you how s/he trains it and then modify to suit your preferences in training styles. You may not have to use the same equipment to train these behaviors
Sue Aislby trains her own service dogs and I have personally seen how accurate they are with the skills she needs and I know she is a +R trainer. In fact, for her present service dog, she kept a blog. That might be helpful to read[/QUOTE]
My service dog in training was worked with a prong collar. Because he couldn’t care less about a correction from anything less. Now he doesn’t need it, but he associates it and his vest with working, so he still wears it when we’re training. He’s the first dog I’ve had that we used one on. He’s hard headed and drivey, which is part of what makes him so good for the work we want him to do.
I do really dislike trainers who always use the same speciality equipment on every dog. Most dogs don’t need a prong or an E-collar, esp for general work. I tend to steer clear of trainers who have a one size fits all approach.
[QUOTE=khall;8290208]
I may just go the Pet Smart route just to get her in such busy environment, lots going on there and she wants to greet every person enthusiastically (one of her issues, that and getting wound about going for a ride in the truck) see if the trainer there can help.[/QUOTE]
Actually, even without the trainer, just going to the PetSmart might help. My last dog I adopted as an adult and he would LOSE HIS MIND with joy when we went to PetSmart/PetCo or similar places, which was obviously not optimal. I talked to the folks at the local PetCo (which was handily quite close to me) and they were quite happy for me to just come in during the less busy hours and if he was good he got to say hello and sniff stuff politely, etc. If he was too wound up we went to the boring back corner of the store with the cat litter and did very boring stuff like practicing sit and stay. Then we gradually worked up to busier times at the store, until he was happy to go but not unacceptably wound up and impolite about it. (By that point the back corner had also been firmly established as The Boring Spot so if he was getting a little too wound up and it was busy, usually just a walk around the back bit of the shelves was enough of a break for him to re-engage his brain.)
Kdow- the reason we went to a prong for my guy is that as a puppy he was allowed to drag around at the end of his slip lead, so a slip or flat collar just was totally ignored. We used a choker, but you really had to pop him to get his attention. With his prong I have total control with just a very light/subtle pressure when needed. To me it’s kind of like having a curb rein on the bit, it shouldn’t take much more than a light touch when needed to get results.
For reference, I had my dog trained by a pro. I attended the classes so I could learn, even though I had already done obedience shows before, rather than doing board and train–this guy is much better than I am–and the only reason we aren’t currently showing obedience is my severe lack of time at the moment to commit weekends to it. When I got my dog he had severe behavioral issues that stemmed from bad handling the first year of his life.
So I like positive-only training…when it works. But a lot of times it doesn’t work to eliminate behaviors. Sure, there is redirection, there is offering them treats for not doing it. But sometimes whatever the behavior is, it’s so stimulating that nothing you offer the dog is going to be more rewarding than what it’s currently doing.
For an example, take yourself back to childhood. Pretend you’re entirely absorbed in the best video game of your life. Your mother thinks you’re playing the game too much, so every time you go toward it, she offers you a singular cookie, other high-value food item, or another game.
Are you going to stop? Not likely. You may for a moment stop to take the food, but in all likelihood you will then continue to the video game. If you’re offered another game, you’re likely not to stop at all. The only time you’ll stop is when the game is taken away from you or your mom talks to you about playing too much.
Unfortunately, in dogs, we can’t always ‘take the game away from them’. For a dog that bolts, doorways will always exist. For a dog that chases cats or children or cars, there will always be a chance that cats, children, or cars exist. For a dog that barks furiously at the door every time it hears someone outside, we can’t take away its teeth or its vocal cords.
Dogs also don’t understand english, so we can’t talk to them about why what they’re doing is bad or dangerous. So instead we need to apply an aversive. For the dog that’s barking we shake a can of pennies in its face. For the dog that bolts or chases, we might offer a correction with a pinch or e-collar. The dog is just going to ignore us if we offer it a treat or try to redirect the behavior, because the original behavior is often so stimulating that nothing we could possibly ever offer that dog is going to dissuade or distract it from what it’s already doing or about to do.
Not to say that you shouldn’t try redirection or positive reinforcement first. But much like a horse that’s had bad handling, sometimes the behavior is so ingrained and so rewarding that the only thing you can do to stop it is apply an aversive.
