I use a 5-1/4" Boucher w/ a French Link…awesome! Bit of Britain always carries inexpensive ones around $35. Helps to relax the poll, the french link gives them something to play with and the 2 of us are happy, happy, happy!
Remember, if you are moving from a loose ring or “reg” snaffle to a boucher, buy 1/4" bigger for the proper fit.
Even my western pleasure/pattern horse loves the boucher some dressage too!
It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do.
Wow, FHC, that’s the first time I’ve ever heard that. Why do you think so?
That is what I have seen in the horses that use them. It teaches them to hold their head in a position, and not have a “dialog” with the riders hands.
Interesting!
My horse really likes the pelham with the mullen, even when I don’t even touch the curb rein (I leave it loopy most of the time, much to my trainer’s chagrin). I think I will try a mullen on him for my next bit experiment- he’s in an albacon german silver baucher, single link right now.
Baucher
[QUOTE=hoser1;3369022]
I have seen a few people riding in baucher bits lately and I am curious about their purpose. I have never ridden in one, always stuck to the good old loose rings. Am I correct that bauchers are legal? Could someone educate me on the purpose of this bit, and what type of horse benefits from one?[/QUOTE]
It is legal for dressage, and my trainer advised me to try it for my friesian cross. Results are that he is lighter on the front end with it. yahooooo
Forgive me Fairview, but I seem to have just the opposite with a Welsh Cob and my APHA mare that tends to me too heavy on the front end in anything but the Baucher that was introduced to me by a French-style dressage trainer down the road from you.
Both horses are more accepting of the bridle and responsive, something I’ve found many lower level riders truly need. Both are back underneath themselves on their hindquarters (off the forehand) carrying themselves in a proper frame and riding into the bridle - that is what I’m supposed to be doing?
Let’s just say the Baucher is a tool that tells the horse what is expected of them and meets with immediate submission and no “see-sawing” of the reins or warm-up exercises that quite frankly exhaust the rider before entering at A.
“Asking, not forcing” is so much easier with a Baucher. It’s been a god-send. So was the trainer that introduced me to it!
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3377976]
That is what I have seen in the horses that use them. It teaches them to hold their head in a position, and not have a “dialog” with the riders hands.[/QUOTE]
Not if used properly.
There are a lot of trainers “down the road from me” - good and bad. Your words remind me of the Dominique clan - nuff said.
The responses here prove the point. The horse instantly becomes lighter and more responsive. That IS what they do with a more severe bit. They don’t learn to lighten by engagement of the hindquarters, but because of increased pain if they don’t hold themselves up off that bit. You can get the same reaction with any more severe bit. To me it is a cheat to get what “looks” like dressage, but does not have the quality of real dressage. I want my horse reaching for the contact, seeking my hand, not backed off. I want to lighten my horse with my leg, not my hand. Back to front. The head is a clear sign of the correctness of the rest of the work. When the body and engagement is right, the horse will be correct in your hand. If he is not, that is a sign that the training is not right. I don’t want to remove that test of correctness.
The French and German methods of dressage AND the type of bit evolved from the kind of horse they had available. The Germans had heavier horses, less reactive, so their methods were more pushing forward - expression of the gaits. The French had a lighter, hotter horse. They needed the stop/brakes, and their methods are all about backing off the too forward horse - control.
Any trainer that uses a baucher bit is one I don’t want training my horses, or giving dressage lessons. Also, for what it is worth, I don’t see a lot of the French having great success in dressage. If I want to learn how to ski, my guess is that a trainer from Central America wouldn’t be the best choice.
I ride with a trainer who subscribes to the German school. An event trainer, so yes, we mostly have lighter horses in the barn, but one who does very well with the dressage (per the local straight dressage folks as well as the eventers).
We have a couple of horses in the barn who go in bauchers, or who have in the past. My guy–who started out wanting to be above the bit, backed off and unsteady in the contact–spent the winter in one, and that was the winter in which he learned to “reach[] for the contact, seek[] my hand, not back[] off”. This is of course only one case and we’ve since taken him out of it (for reasons unrelated to being unhappy with his performance in it), but the stability of the baucher was, in this particular case, very useful in teaching him what you’re claiming can’t be taught in that bit.
You may not believe me, and that’s certainly your right. But your description bears no resemblance to my experience using the bit or watching it used by others in my barn.
I’m confused. Above the bit is one that has not dropped his head yet, but carries the contact higher. This is fixed by training, engagement, riding back to front, rhythm, tracking up thru a relaxed back, etc. “Backed off” is one that has curled over too much, and dropped the contact. This is fixed by going back to basics and riding the horse “above the bit” for about a year, until they learn to trust the hand again.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3377851]
It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do.[/QUOTE]
Never had that experience! I’ve found the stability of the bit can really encourage some horses to move into the bit, instead of away from it. I’ve had great success with it, on some of the horses I’ve used it on (which isn’t many, as I like to stay in a snaffle unless they obviously need something else). I’ve seen a huge difference in horses who just needed the stability that the boucher gives.
I hate riding a horse that backs away from the bit. I grew up riding ponies (nuff said!) and can’t stand a horse who sucks back behind the bit, and then has his way with me. So, needless to say, if any horse I had put in a baucher had backed off, I most definitely wouldn’t be a fan of the bit.
I really don’t see how it can cause them to back off - there’s no leverage, and minimal poll pressure at best. That doesn’t scream harsh to me. :no:
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3379405]
I’m confused. Above the bit is one that has not dropped his head yet, but carries the contact higher. This is fixed by training, engagement, riding back to front, rhythm, tracking up thru a relaxed back, etc. “Backed off” is one that has curled over too much, and dropped the contact. This is fixed by going back to basics and riding the horse “above the bit” for about a year, until they learn to trust the hand again.[/QUOTE]
Difference in terminology. Your “backed off” sounds like what I’m familiar with described as “behind the bit.” “Backed off”, to me, is a reluctance to stretch/reach into contact that can manifest in any number of ways. The semantics are not the point. This:
…the stability of the baucher was, in this particular case, very useful in teaching him what you’re claiming can’t be taught in that bit…
is the point.
FHC, I have had the exact opposite reaction for my horse. I started riding him in a Baucher on June 21. Prior to that I was riding him in a Loose Ring French Link Snaffle and before that a Full Cheek French Link. He has always had a tendency to drop back behind the vertical and we have been working hard to correct this.
This picture is from his second ride in the Baucher:
http://www3.telus.net/public/rmeehan/IMG_1368.jpg
For him, the big fat loose ring bit as well as the full cheek were to large of a diameter for his mouth. He has a rather low pallet. He much prefers the stability of this bit in his mouth.
Any bit can be severe, it all depends on the individuals hands and how soft or hard they are.
I’m very curious for Fairview Horse Center to explain exactly why she/he thinks this bit is “much more severe”. Because honestly I don’t see how it’s any more or less severe then any other snaffle out there.
IME horses who are ridden in more harsh bits do not get lighter and more responsive, at least not in the long run. IME they get heavier and less responsive with more resistance problems. It’s always worked out the other way around for me, put the less responsive horse in a less harsh bit, they are more comfortable with and they become more responsive, less resistant, lighter and more likely to go forward comfortably.
My mare always had a fussy mouth and was never ridden in anything more harsh then a single jointed D. She did terrible in a french link O-ring, a little better in a full cheek but absolutely best of all the baucher. Now she is much more likely to seek out contact, whereas before she was setting her head, behind the bit and just in general not as happy as she is now.
It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do
There is absolutely NOTHING severe about the Baucher. It is just a snaffle, after all. It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that.
One of the reasons so many horses go soooooo well and quietly in it is that it doesn’t rest on the bars of the mouth, but rather ‘hangs’ in the mouth by the direct connection to the cheek pieces and acts more on the corners of the mouth. It is a mild bit. Some horses have large mouths, some small, some high palates, some low, and some have very, very thin padding on the bars of their mouths and are very disturbed by the constant pressure of a bit on the bars of the mouth - even if just resting there and not even having pressure by bad hands.
Pintopiaffe - You can get the NS Baucher with the lozenge in this country here.You just have to plow through the bits section to find it. Even on this site it says there is poll pressure, but that is impossible without the leverage of a curb chain or strap.
I agree with this.
But:
It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that.
I disagree with this statement, that’s not what physics says. For a simple example take a classic gag bit, which is a snaffle mouthpiece, but as you pull on the reins, the bit slides up the cheek, and you definitely get poll pressure. The net effect is typically “lifting” though because the pull down along the cheekpiece at the poll is balanced by the pull upward along the cheekpiece at the mouth and the mouth is more sensitive.
Any bit that moves in such a way that the tension on the cheekpiece is increased causes some poll pressure, but that’s usually not the most relevant thing. A Baucher can have a very slight elevating effect because a little of the rein action may be translated into rotation of the bit, which would be translated into tension on the cheek piece which physically has to be balanced by pressure on the poll.
A curb chain actually limits the amount of rotation of the bit by creating pressure under the jaw and pulling the bit down against the mouth somewhat.
If you are close enough to your physics classes, try drawing the force diagrams and you’ll see what I mean. But the force diagrams don’t tell the whole story, because it’s where the horse is sensitive that really counts, and that can vary somewhat from horse to horse.
too bad fairview had to really show off her ignorance in this thread, that can’t be good for business.
the baucher works exactly the same way as a full cheek snaffle that has keepers attached.
my trainer also believed that there was a “slight” amount of poll pressure applied with the baucher bit until i challenged her to make it happen with my horse. from the ground we stood there and yanked the reins every which way we could imagine and no matter which direction or strength was pulled, it made the cheekpieces of the bridle gape, there is no poll pressure at all.
It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that. I disagree with this statement, that's not what physics says. For a simple example take a classic gag bit, which is a snaffle mouthpiece, but as you pull on the reins, the bit slides up the cheek, and you definitely get poll pressure. The net effect is typically "lifting" though because the pull down along the cheekpiece at the poll is balanced by the pull upward along the cheekpiece at the mouth and the mouth is more sensitive.
Yeah, but the gag is also a leverage bit. I believe the comparison was really about snaffles.
If a baucher is severe, so is a fullcheek with keepers. Virtually identical action.
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