Thoughts on baucher bits?

[Tucked_Away]

[QUOTE=SoCalEquestrienne;3380407]
A Baucher can have a very slight elevating effect because a little of the rein action may be translated into rotation of the bit, which would be translated into tension on the cheek piece which physically has to be balanced by pressure on the poll. [/QUOTE]

I wish I had a good picture to illustrate this. Alas, the only one I have is hard copy and I have no scanner. But…there is no rotation of the bit with a baucher. Manipulate the reins and the bit comes directly back.

[Foxhound]

I used to ride a little QH who was initially reluctant to go to the bit. After a little trial and error, we found that he was happiest and took the best contact in a baucher bit, with a dropped noseband.
Go figure.

Edited to add:
Hoser1, if you want to borrow my baucher, you are welcome to it.

[Posting_Trot]

My experience with a baucher has been that my horse likes it better than a standard loose ring. I define “like” as: in the loose-ring (and I’ve tried several different mouthpieces) she crunches the bit more or less continuously and often tries to evade the bit by being behind it.

In the baucher she is much quieter with her mouth, and she will stretch into the bit.

It’s a very nice bit for her, but not all horses (or riders, or trainers) will love it. Which is why there are 8 pages or so of bits in the Dover catalog.

[easyrider]

There are bauchers and then there are bauchers. A lot of the difference in how they operate – poll pressure vs. no poll pressure, harshness vs. gentleness – is due to the construction of the individual bit. I learned this from Alixe Etherington, whose family manufactured the Dewsbury bits.

The baucher was originally designed to exert a degree of poll pressure. However, in order to do so, the mouthpiece must be attached to the ring in a slightly higher than central position. This causes the cheek to tilt when activated, which lengthens the distance the cheek piece covers, creating the slight poll pressure. If the mouthpiece is attached directly in line with the rein, the cheek doesn’t tilt and therefore there’s no poll pressure. The bit also then becomes a much gentler bit.

Through the years, I’ve noticed that most baucher bits are fabricated with the mouthpiece directly in the center of the ring rather than higher up, so most of them do not exert the slight poll pressure that was intended to be one of the effects of the traditional baucher (and which takes place in the Dewsbury baucher I have).

Admittedly, poll pressure is probably far less important than stability and lack of pressure on the bars when evaluating the effectiveness of this bit for any particular horse.

[Sandy_M]

My now reitired horse was fussy in a loose ring, accepting a good contact sometimes, going slightly above the bit at others, through sometimes, hollowing his back others. He had a big tongue, low palate. I tried the french link Baucher with him, and he was not instantly “light” (he was ALWAYS “light”), but hewould reach for the bit, take a contact more steadily, work through his back more willingly. This is a horse that would stop dead on a whisper whoa, go “on the bit” (i.e., assume a frame) in a halter, but not be truely through. With the Baucher he was much happier. Though the picture in my profile is too small for the bit to be seen, he is in a Baucher and the shot was taken just as I was asking him to stretch down, at the canter. He looks happy to me, and not at all reacting to a “severe” bit.

[system]

baucher made my horse a happy horse

First I would like to introduce myself , My name is Tiffany and I am living in Jakarta indonesia , I have 5 horses and all of them now use a baucher bit, after reading some of the stuff on here i am amazed at what people say, I have a 22 year old KWPN who I bought when he was a 7 year old and he came to me with a tounge problem it was always out and flopping around for years I was told to crank the flash closed and put a tounge sepresser in his mouth , at that time he was in a “nice” KK ultra snaffle. Of course I did none of the things i was told to do I was shock at the thought that he was going to be uncomfortable so I just worked with him for years and he did improve but we still had the tounge problem until I had a lady that moved to indonesia and told me about the Baucher ( a god sent) she also told me to take off the flash and losen the caverson so with a new found hope i went ahead and tried it , well to my compleat and utter shock within 20 mins I has white lip stick pooring from his mouth somthing that was so hard to get seamed so simple and amazing there was not a tounge in sight . Well you can imagin how thrilled I was , so we started to do more and more dressage work. Up until this point he was my jumping horse and had done very well but now we could do dressage as the tounge was in his mouth where it stayed. He is now at prix st george level and as that it as high as we go I see no point in pushing the old man to do more even though we do have a go at pieff and passage . He loves this bit so much he will even open his mouth to take it and has not trouble coming to the contact.

Now to the new horse that I just bought of a friend of mine as she was so frustrated with his mouth problem even the slightest of contact and he would throw his head in the air in a fit of rage , so I thought well I will buy him i fix him up so yet again i took off the flash and poped in the baucher and off we went oh what a dream he was straight into the contact glorious lip stick and what a soft back , now i am not saying that i am a horse fixer oh no i know that all of this is coming from the horses that I ride why you may ask well that just seam to really like this bit and so far every horses that has had a bitting problem of a mouth problem has taken to this magic bit like a duck to water.

I am going to be try a baucher on a horse that has spent the last year of its life in draw reins forcing its head down to it chest, the reason being is that the rider says that he is so strong and he puts his head in the air so the only way she can ride him is in draw reins I believe that he is just not happy in the mouth so let us see how this bit goes on him I will write back and let you know how it all goes I am keeping my fingers crossed as i dont think that draw reins are the right way to go and he is a advance level dressage horse … in draw reins you say maybe thats why he does not proform so well cuz when they come off his head is right in the air … do this have to do with the rider as well to me yes if you cant ride your horse without draw reins then there is something wrong!!! lets hope that I can change this.

[DraftyAcres]

SoCalEquestrienne has exactly the right approach to figuring out the action of the Baucher bit, or any other. It is all about the physics, and the physics of the Baucher say that it is not a true snaffle, but is actually a leverage bit and therefore is more severe than a true snaffle.

When you put keepers on a full-cheek snaffle, it also is no longer a true snaffle but becomes a leverate bit in almost exactly the same way. So yes, a Baucher is just like a full-cheek snaffle with keepers, but both are actually more severe than an unaltered snaffle.

The lever arm in both cases is fairly short, that being the distance from the pulling point of the reins to the tension point of the keeper or top ring of the Baucher. It can be a little shocking when one realizes, by visualizing or diagramming, that the work of the chin strap on a curb bit is being transferred, even if only lightly, to the poll when using a Baucher or full-cheek snaffle with keepers. But as is the case with all leverage action, a very short lever arm can still exert a lot of leverage, so yes the Baucher is more severe than a true snaffle.

The action of any bit can be demysitifed if one really thinks through the physical forces being exerted. I’m not trying to be a know-it-all or throw cold water on anyone’s love of the Baucher, but rather trying to demystify bit action a little and to help clarify the distinction between a true snaffle and the ever-growing number of bits that are called snaffles but really aren’t.

[ideayoda]

I have never seen a horse in a boucher bit which is not lowered and closed. If that is a horse ‘liking the bit’ and what you want when riding, go for this type bit. I saw it about 30 years ago at one point in the midwest, and it seems to have spread. Bits rarely solve the problem with horses, but they apply effects riders want to see whether they are correct or not.

First this is not a french bit, nor a baucher development. For some reason the name boucher (the bit originially) became now baucher.

For those that say there is no head pressure (behind the poll area) in one, have you put your hand under the leather over that area? Do this with any/all of your bits.

A full check (or specifically a fulmer) does not have the same effect. With keepers (for which it is close to impossible to find proper length of keepers), there is not quite the same action (because of where the bit is hung). However many young horses do not care for the effect with keepers (which are for safety, not intention). The concept of full check is to prevent tilting, the other is not.

The final question is how many people are riding with a snaffle with the intention of funneling a horse into a connection/refining hh/a mobile jaw/lateral flexibility/etc vs working a horse into longitudinal flexion as their first job. When you pick the outcome, you pick the bit. For some happy is the horse signing up for anything as long as the rider gets longitudinal flexion.

[SwampYankee]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3379151]
There are a lot of trainers “down the road from me” - good and bad. Your words remind me of the Dominique clan - nuff said.

The responses here prove the point. The horse instantly becomes lighter and more responsive. That IS what they do with a more severe bit. They don’t learn to lighten by engagement of the hindquarters, but because of increased pain if they don’t hold themselves up off that bit. You can get the same reaction with any more severe bit. To me it is a cheat to get what “looks” like dressage, but does not have the quality of real dressage. I want my horse reaching for the contact, seeking my hand, not backed off. I want to lighten my horse with my leg, not my hand. Back to front. The head is a clear sign of the correctness of the rest of the work. When the body and engagement is right, the horse will be correct in your hand. If he is not, that is a sign that the training is not right. I don’t want to remove that test of correctness.

The French and German methods of dressage AND the type of bit evolved from the kind of horse they had available. The Germans had heavier horses, less reactive, so their methods were more pushing forward - expression of the gaits. The French had a lighter, hotter horse. They needed the stop/brakes, and their methods are all about backing off the too forward horse - control.

Any trainer that uses a baucher bit is one I don’t want training my horses, or giving dressage lessons. Also, for what it is worth, I don’t see a lot of the French having great success in dressage. If I want to learn how to ski, my guess is that a trainer from Central America wouldn’t be the best choice.[/QUOTE]

Bilge! You have “backing off” or “going behind” the bit confused with a horse properly RESPECTING the bit and therefore the rider’s hands. There can be no “conversation” worthy of the name when a horse is putting 10 or 20 or 50 lbs. of “contact” on each rein. On his end it’s just zoning out to the pain, on your end it’s a very tired back. Who the heck wants riding to feel like driving a bus without power steering?

There is a REASON why bits other than a fat snaffle that encourages a horse to lean were developed; because back in the real world use of the horse, no one wanted to get that tired! They might even have wanted to be able to hold a conversation with another rider on the road. Think cavalry on the march, or a day’s hunting. You really want that beast leaning on your arms for 40 miles? THE HORSE needs to HOLD HIMSELF UP without balancing on the rider’s hands. The Baucher would be the mildest of bits out there that are employed to facilitate this.

It is complete, utter mythology that the horse cannot be using his hindquarters, rounding his topline and moving athleticallly without bearing against the rider’s hands.
To the point where I would opine that if he is doing so, you have no collection, let alone self-carriage, at ALL. You have only an artificial, tension-promoting, compression.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

Why are we bringing up a 4.5 year old thread?

[Ambitious_Kate]

The reason I use the Baucher is because the bit is held up off the bars of the horse’s mouth - it does not act on the bars (which for some horses is painful) and the horse in those cases might be more accepting of the bit. When the horse accepts the bit, you can eliminate hours of fighting. My horse has been able to let go of his abhorance of the bit and learn to use it effectively when it it held up off his bars of his mouth.

Each horse had a different mouth conformation. My horse, with a flat (low) palate needs a bit which isn’t going to crack up into his palate.

Another point of this bit: Ideally, you want the horse to be able to raise his head and move into the bit. If you can keep off the bars of his mouth (by keeping your hands from being low and wide, on any bit) he can use the bit more actively. The Baucher contributes to the horse’s acceptance of the bit by reducing the bar pressure

Especiallyh if the rider learns to keep her hands up and keep them from being low and wide.

[wylde_sage]

Why are we bringing up a 4.5 year old thread?

Actually I’m quite grateful that a 4.5 year old thread has been dredged up. I am considering a Baucher bit and have enjoyed reading the pros and cons.

[ideayoda]

[QUOTE=SwampYankee;6585998]

There is a REASON why bits other than a fat snaffle that encourages a horse to lean were developed; because back in the real world use of the horse, no one wanted to get that tired! They might even have wanted to be able to hold a conversation with another rider on the road. Think cavalry on the march, or a day’s hunting. You really want that beast leaning on your arms for 40 miles? THE HORSE needs to HOLD HIMSELF UP without balancing on the rider’s hands. The Baucher would be the mildest of bits out there that are employed to facilitate this.

It is complete, utter mythology that the horse cannot be using his hindquarters, rounding his topline and moving athleticallly without bearing against the rider’s hands.[/QUOTE]
The ‘new bits’ (other than single broken snaffles/full bridles) (mostly in the last 40-50 years) are because riders think that the horse can be ‘fixed’ because of a bit (this includes includes the boucher) were developed. The bit/saddle proliferation is something very new and part of a marketing machine. Because in past times the horses problems were fixed by changing the rider’s effect.

Leaning/bearing is created either by riders holding/asking for preciptious longitudinal flexion/ or a horse which is allowed to travel on the forehand without effect hh. A horse must work into a light connect with the hand, be tested first by being able to mobilize the jaw and chew fdo, and over time with release to test self carriage. Effective folding of the hindleg joints is what lowers the croup and lifts the chest.

[piccolopony]

I just want to say that there is a middle ground. I completely agree with what you are saying in regards to pulling/pressure on the bit and self carriage of the horse, so don’t get me wrong, but progress is often good. I am an extremely traditional person and usually feel that “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” but let’s face it. People used to only live to their fourties, the infant mortality rate was extremely high, we were using products on a regular basis that are still causing cancer today and horses were often ridden with tack that didn’t fit their conformation. I agree that there are probably too many options now for bits and everyone is looking for a quick fix but it also means that if one is looking for the right reasons, with the comfort and unique conformation of the horse in mind they have many more options in fitting. It is not only because of the “marketing machine” and even if it were, it’s not all bad. Every horse and rider should be free to choose what fits them the best and makes them the most comfortable and threads like these looking for examples of why people use bits like these are a great resource for people for that reason.

[jess.horse]

I would say the baucher has a certain degree of poll pressure, logic! The OTTB I have been riding, I once rode him in ordinary snaffles, and he bolted and was very sensitive and uncontrollable, so much so that, I had to dismount and my coach ride him. Then I rode the horse in a baucher. Much improvement and he was alot stiller in his head movement.

If it works for you, USE IT! If if doesn’t work for you, guess what? DON’T USE IT!!

For anyone’s sake in Australia, baucher’s are EA, Interschool and PC legal I don’t think they would be if they were cruel.

[thecolorcoal]

if this hasn’t been stated yet, while I agree with many of FHC’s points concerning the schools of dressage, I disagree about the generalization that “trainers who use bauchers” are somehow incorrect in their training methods. Perhaps the bit is "stronger’, not necessarily harsher, because it puts direct pressure on the bars of the mouth? And it is steady contact that the horse cannot necessarily manipulate the way they could with a loose ring? I can see their argument in that context. But I also have read here and other places that many horses are more comfortable with a baucher because the contact is constant and since horses are animals of habit it’s more soothing when they know exactly what to expect from the bit whereas a loose ring is a bit more random in it’s contact if ridden by your average rider.

[Belowthesalt]

@Fairview Horse Center

It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do.

Per Hilda Gurney (and because I ride my horse in a Baucher and did so in a clinic with her): (a) there is no poll pressure, and (b) it’s particularly good bit for riders with unsteady hands to use, since it minimizes that unsteadiness. My last two horses “backed off” the bit and were unsteady with loose ring bits (which is what I’ve always started young horses in). They preferred the “quietness” of the Baucher and were most definitely steadier in the bridle and more engaged. And as pintopiaffe said, you can achieve the same effect of a fullcheek with keepers. Perhaps this just devolves down to the usual comment: A bit is only as severe as the hands using it.

[atr]

No poll pressure. Physics and the law of levers… If the rein were fixed to the bit ring, through a slot, say, or if there were an arm below the bit to which the rein attached, then yes, poll pressure. But with a rein that is moving on the bit ring, no leverage, so no poll pressure.

(I did once see someone riding in one upside-down. Significant poll pressure. “Did I know that this magical bit was show-legal?” “Not like that, it isn’t…”)

I’ve had one horse who was a happy camper in a Baucher, but the current one expressed a marked lack of preference for it, which was a shame as he’s a fussy-mouth and I had hoped that it would be The Thing.