Thoughts on head bobbing - Happy Update!

[Ashemont]

My ponies are going better every day and were it not for one little problem I’d really be happy: Maya bobs her head

She doesn’t do it all of the time but once she starts she keeps going. Most of the time she doesn’t start bobbing until after we’ve worked for a bit - maybe 30-40 minutes - which made me think she was getting sweaty and itchy, but many times she’ll start doing it right away.

I’ve had her teeth done. Checked all tack and had my trainer check it. Her curb chain isn’t tight and I drive her in the top hole of a nice mullen mouth - which is wrapped. I’ve tried the noseband loose and snug: makes no difference.

I reverted to my western bag of tricks and put a war bonnet on her the other day (just made one up quickly out of baling twine). When she started to bob and hit the bonnet she quickly stopped. So should I just keep using this for training (it doesn’t interfere with anything unless she throws her head up) or is there something else I should try?

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Ashemont;3889221]
My ponies are going better every day and were it not for one little problem I’d really be happy: Maya bobs her head

She doesn’t do it all of the time but once she starts she keeps going. Most of the time she doesn’t start bobbing until after we’ve worked for a bit - maybe 30-40 minutes - which made me think she was getting sweaty and itchy, but many times she’ll start doing it right away.

I’ve had her teeth done. Checked all tack and had my trainer check it. Her curb chain isn’t tight and I drive her in the top hole of a nice mullen mouth - which is wrapped. I’ve tried the noseband loose and snug: makes no difference.

I reverted to my western bag of tricks and put a war bonnet on her the other day (just made one up quickly out of baling twine). When she started to bob and hit the bonnet she quickly stopped. So should I just keep using this for training (it doesn’t interfere with anything unless she throws her head up) or is there something else I should try?[/QUOTE]

no-- ahorse or pony bobs its head when its lame have her on even solid ground and have another trot her up ie concrete as its flat then have them trot down and up in front of you to see which leg it is

[gothedistance]

Pat -

Can you describe this “bob” in more detail, please? I’m not fixing the picture in my mind.

[goodhors]

Just an idea, from buying a Virginia horse. Have her selenium checked. He was extremely low, got very sore in work. Not actually head bobbing, but not right.

With the test results, we got him the selenium shots for immediate raising his levels, with selenium and Vit E top dressed on his feed. He was retested within a month, showed a great improvement, but not up to normal levels yet. Took some time, but finally got him normal.

His action, stamina, smoothness in movement, all visibly improved with higher selenium levels in the body. We were not working him much at that time, but the few outings showed us he was getting better.

Selenium is supposed to be in short supply along that side of the nation, and working horses use up their stored supply. For us, horses who sweat regularly, especially mares, need more attention to their selenium and Vit E, than non-working horses or horses used lightly.

I know you get the Pair out and they work. Probably sweat every outing, often heavily. This means you have to give them additional, to keep the selenium and Vit E at normal levels.

Oddly enough Selenium helps make the muscles work easier, so fatigue in fit animal, doesn’t set in as soon. We noticed that with our VA horse. He came to us, with regular work driving, being ridden, supposed to be quite fit in his work. He really tired quickly though, and we sure were not working him very hard. His Pair partner wasn’t even sweaty. Not as fluid of movement in work, seemed sore muscled when work was done. Some of that we put down to shoeing changes, after upping his shoes 2 sizes to really fit correctly.

With a previous driving mare, we had lots of muscle soreness, bad heat cycles, terrible back soreness. We did the selenium test to rule things out. We were sure she had a lameness problem we could not pinpoint. Turned out with her EXTREMELY low selenium that her reproductive cycle was affected, along with the muscle soreness. She also got the shots, while we learned a WHOLE bunch about Selenium as a helping mineral in the body. We had a sharp learning curve on the selenium to get things readjusted in our feeding set up. The other mare, fed exactly the same way, had no selenium problem. But she was not sweating much in her ridden work. Not working hard, like the driving horse getting conditioned.

Getting the pony mares tested for selenium deficiency would be a good first step. At least you can rule it out as a problem. You can keep on checking for other reasons. We had one horse who just had a busy head, sometimes bobbed it, just never really still. No lameness, just irritating as possible. She was that kind of horse.

If Maya is very bobby, she could be lame, someplace. We went thru a lot of “nope, not that” ideas, before we stumbled on the selenium problem. Video tape might help pinpoint a location, since with tape you can slow her way down.

[Ashemont]

Thanks for the input and suggestions. Maya is NOT lame… no way, no how She and Maggie are so sound and fit that people always comment on it :yes: And I’m pretty good at spotting even subtle lameness, too. Maya’s also not sweating much now that she’s as fit as Maggie.

It’s a consistent up-down of her head - nose in, nose out nervous kind of thing. As I said, she will sometimes do it as soon as we start up but usually doesn’t do it until after she’s worked a bit. She also does it after something has upset her and is more apt to bob after we’ve done some turning rather than just straight lines. There’s nothing totally consistent about when she does it which is making it hard to figure out

Everyone was certain it was her teeth - and the dentist did remove a tiny sliver of a wolf tooth - but now that her teeth are fine she’s still doing it. I have noticed Maya is more likely to bob her head when she gets a little nervous but I sure don’t want it to become a habit.

I will certainly talk to my vet about selenium testing. It sure wouldn’t hurt anything I do know that the soil in our area is deficient in copper and zinc; since I’ve started supplementing just these two minerals there’s been a noticeable improvement in all of the horses’ hooves, but the ponies have always had good feet.

One thing that has me wondering is the fact that she stopped it completely when I put the war bonnet on her. Now a war bonnet isn’t something that she really knows is there unless she throws her head up. After hitting it once or twice she held her head steady; I don’t think this would happen if she were lame but could happen if she were just exhibiting a nervous affectation.

[hobbyhorse23]

Two thoughts here- the first, just to be responsible and cover all the physical bases, is to ask “Have you had a chiropractor look at her?” My Kody gets this compulsive neck bobbing/diving thing at some shows and it always means he’s thrown his neck out. A quick trip to the chiro sets him right and no more bobbing! The fact that this mostly shows up after she’s well into her work suggests it’s a soreness issue.

The second thought, given her reaction to the war bonnet, is that this is a nervous thing. Horses get into nervous habits just like people do and once they learn they can release endorphins or just get that compulsive fix by tossing their heads or pawing or champing the bit or whatever it’s hard to break. I think you’re doing the right thing by using a self-corrective device that only works when she exhibits the behavior but otherwise doesn’t interfer. Use it until she stops trying to bob her head, then take it off more and more often until she isn’t wearing it at all. I don’t usually turn to any sort of device as a solution, but that sort of nervous habit is one place where I will! It’s better than any belated correction I could make from the driver’s seat and will always be directly proportional to the offense.

Do make sure she isn’t experiencing any pain in her neck or back though and that she isn’t seeking to evade the bit or getting anxious because she doesn’t understand what is being asked or isn’t happy in her work. That’s always primary!

Leia

[Ashemont]

Yes on the chiro. No adjustments needed I’ve tried to cover all of the ‘physical’ reasons why she’d do this. I thought it was teeth… but now I’m leaning more towards a nervous reaction that’s fast becoming a habit.

I’m planning to use the war bonnet for a week or two and then re-evaluate - a plan my trainer agrees with. In the meantime I’m going to investigate the possibility of selenium deficiency.

This is just one of those frustrating things that would be so much easier for me to fix if I could RIDE her. Driving certainly has it’s own set of challenges! :yes:

Oh and just as an afterthought… although Maya bobbed her head all through her dressage test, she never did it once during cones or marathon

[cabz]

Maya head bobbing

Pat

Sorry, I do not have an suggestion, but maybe she is like me and does not like driven dressage or she is keeping time in her head to the music for the kur!!!

Hope you find a solution.

Cynthia

[49_er]

I had a horse that would do this, usually at the walk in dressage. She would not stay on the bit and would lose the impulsion from her hind legs. One thing I tried was a German martingale on my driving reins which sort of worked while I was using them. The better solution was to drive her up into your hand, even if you got a little bit of jigging here and there. I feel it was a nervous affectation. From the little bit of pair driving I have done, this may not be easy to solve in the pair. Maybe try single to school for a bit? Good luck.

[gothedistance]

Well…I’ll throw in my opinion on this, but want to ask another question first. Pat – is Maya a skin sensitive pony? Rather like the Princess and the Pea type?

If so, then it could be that she is being bothered by itchy sweat around the bridle - something that doesn’t appear until after she’s been worked a bit. The bobbing initially even before driving comes by just the bridle alone pressing on facial skin (which doesn’t happen with a simple halter) and making the skin itchy underneath. Ponies will fling and twitch their heads when they can’t get it down to the leg for a good scratch. That would be why nothing shows up in the chiro or other investigations, yet the war bridle works perfectly because it immediately takes her mind off the itch. So does marathon and cones where she changes focus to fast action in front of her and the annoyance of the itching receeds into the background. Finally, if the first thing she does is try to scratch her head immediately after the bridle is taken off, I’d say you might be looking at that being your problem.

One way to really find out if this is a problem is to give her a touch of ace 45 minutes before working her, then go through the workout and see if she bobs.

[Ashemont]

Cynthia I’d love it if you were right! As a music major I’ve always wanted to do Kur

49’r that’s a good suggestion: I need to try driving her singly and see if she still does it. With several upcoming competitions I’ve been focusing on driving them as a pair but I guess I need to take a step back and find out what the root of the problem it. Then I need to resolve it before going on.

gtd you’ve got a good point - she might a bit sensitive. She reacts to the slightest touch and the lightest pressure on the reins so it’s quite possible she’s very sensitive and this is her response to feeling itchy. If that IS the case, any idea what the cure would be?

Of course once I solve this part of the puzzle I’ve got other issues to work on. For starters, once Maya’s head is steady then I need to get Mggie to come into more of a frame and to carry her head higher. Then I need to get Maya to relax and Maggie to get more energized. It’s a challenge, that’s for sure. But what fun I’m having!!!

[gothedistance]

@Ashemont;3892453

gtd you’ve got a good point - she might a bit sensitive. She reacts to the slightest touch and the lightest pressure on the reins so it’s quite possible she’s very sensitive and this is her response to feeling itchy. If that IS the case, any idea what the cure would be?

The cure is going to be looking for ways to reduce the itching provoked by sweat. Lots of ideas we can toss around later, if it comes to this.

Of course once I solve this part of the puzzle I’ve got other issues to work on. For starters, once Maya’s head is steady then I need to get Mggie to come into more of a frame and to carry her head higher. Then I need to get Maya to relax and Maggie to get more energized. It’s a challenge, that’s for sure. But what fun I’m having!!!
Work them separately so you can concentrate on what your goals are for each pony as an individual before you put them back as a pair. I find that really does the trick with my pairs. :yes:

[Thomas_1]

If you want to take a video clip and email it to me personally I’d be happy to have a look and make some suggestions.

Either that or a very small video clip could be loaded via here for all to have a look at rather than guessing.

p.s. What’s a war bonnet??? I always thought it was a description for a spot of colour on the top of the head of a horse that was predominantly white.

[gothedistance]

@Thomas_1;3893040

p.s. What’s a war bonnet??? I always thought it was a description for a spot of colour on the top of the head of a horse that was predominantly white.

No, that’s a Medicine Hat. (See below)

[KellyS]

It’s hard to tell without seeing it. If all medical causes have been ruled out, it may be a balance issue. I’ve seen horses/ponies bob their heads because they don’t have the strength to carry themselves and keep a connection through the back and into the bridle. This might make sense, especially since it often starts well into work. She may be getting tired and bobbing her head because she’s doesn’t have the strength to balance herself, especially when pulling the carriage.

If she’s truly connected through the bridle, moving forward into the contact, I wouldn’t think she would bob, but again, it may be a strength issue and it’s much harder to keep a connection when you are driving 2 ponies. Driving single is probably a great way to address any issues like this. Have you thought about competing her as a single as well? Perhaps build up a relationship one-on-one (like you have with Maggie) before progressing to competing them as a pair?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=gothedistance;3894185]
No, that’s a Medicine Hat. (See below)[/QUOTE] We call that a war bonnet.

So what’s a war bonnet in your world?

[Ashemont]

Here’s a cable war bonnet - the ears of the horse are between the two top pieces so that there is a cable in front of the ears and over the poll and then the bottom rings are connected to a strap or rope that attaches to the girth between the front legs. This one has a noseband on it which is something I’ve not seen or used.
http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/1070/255135

A warbonnet is also a color marking on the head - sometimes used interchangeably with medicine hat as it’s not clearly defined.

I learned about a war bonnet when I used to rope - definitely a case where you don’t want a head popping up! Many roping horses were regularly ridden with one. It can be very effective if properly used

Kelly, I honestly don’t think it’s a balance or connection issue. Maya is an exceptional mover and I’m sure Bill would’ve picked up on it if that was the cause of the bobbing. Maya doesn’t have the confidence to be shown singly but I’ll take the advice offered and drive both of the ponies alone in training. I’ve also already got my entries in for the next couple of competitions as a pair.

Thomas, I’ll try to get some video in the next few weeks. I’ll have to dig the camera out and give hubby a refresher course in using it :uhoh:

gtd - What could I try to see if it is an itchy/sweat related issue?

Haven’t been able to drive for a few days as I’ve been busy with my 2 year old grand-daughter who shows great interest in horses (daughter is expecting our next little horseperson the end of August :))

[gothedistance]

gtd - What could I try to see if it is an itchy/sweat related issue?
As I suggested – try a bit of ace IM (about 1/4 to 1/2 cc) about 45 minutes before you drive her. Usually ace “softens” minor mental issues so that they become non-issues. If you see the bobbing has greatly decreased or stopped altogether, it is a good probability that the issue is something that mentally bothers, not a physical ailment.

The fact that your war bridle worked – by applying pressure on the same area that tends to become highly itchy with sweat – makes me suspect even more that it is related to this.

Edited to add – Since you said you already have your entries in for several upcoming competition, PLEASE don’t forget you need at least 96 hours (1 week) to allow all traces of ace to leave the system prior to competition.

[Ashemont]

Well I can now honestly say that I do not think this is a sweat/itchy issue. I drove Maya singly today. She was very nervous being alone and started bobbing her head right away. I kept picking away at her, working on dressage. She would relax and go well then something would set her off, she’d get really tense and nervous, and the head would bob.

I put the war bonnet on her, she bobbed a couple of times but then pretty much quit. She never completely relaxed, though, and she was much more sensitive to the whip touching her than she is when driven in the pair.

So I then got Maggie out and drove the pair. I dropped Maggie’s reins down to the bottom (2nd) ring to give me a bit more curb action and voila! I immediately got the head set I wanted. As long as I stayed light with the reins she stayed. Maya was getting tired, sweaty and definitely itchy, but with the war bonnet on she didn’t bob her head at all.

So now my question is: should I continue to try to drive her singly (Bill isn’t very keen on me doing this) or should I just drive her in the pair with the war bonnet on? Or are there any other ideas/thoughts?

[Thomas_1]

I can’t see what difference it would make driving her singly and from what you’ve said it didn’t. She still did it.

I’m laying money on that it’s bitting or rein use.

When you do your video would it be possible to film you putting her bridle on and showing me the bit placement?

Why didn’t Bill want you to drive her singles?

When you drive her pairs is her rein under or over? Which pony generally goes with it’s head higher?