Thoughts on Kaufman Kill Pen

[SonnysMom]

@OverandOnward

I am at a loss as to why a responsible horse owner would send a horse at auction. There is no screening the buyer, no assurance of what kind of home it is going to, even if the buyer is not a killbuyer. It’s pretty much throwing the horse’s life into the wind, exposing it to any kind of fate, including neglect and abuse.

There are many types of auctions. You can set reserves. Anytime you sell a horse you are exposing it to any kind of fate as you no longer own that animal. Unless you only sell to somebody you really know well that person could neglect and abuse your animal or sell it to somebody that does or die and the family sends it to auction.

For most individuals I think it is really hard to truely screen a buyer. I found a kitten at New Holland horse auction. I placed her through word of mouth. She worked for somebody I know well. She was friend’s with one of the boarder’s that knew her well and said she would be a good home. She used the local TSC for her dogs shots but showed me the records and they were all up to date. Four years go by and she called me to ask if I would take the cat back since she was gettting foreclosed on. She had never gotten shots for an indoor/outdoor cat. Yes she called me to take Holly back and I did. She abandoned her other cat who thankfully traveled almost a mile and went to my friend who was her former employers farm. He was matted and thin. Yes I protected my cat and feel awful I couldn’t take the other cat but she still abandoned him. Somebody that I screened well for my cat was capable of that and didn’t bother with shots on the cat I placed with her.

So are all the owners of horses that go to Keeneland sales not responsible owners? Some of those horse bring serious money.
There are on-line auctions such as this one: https://www.professionalauction.com/. I think there used to be a pony auction at Pony Finals. I don’t think all auctions are created equal. Yes, I don’t understand people that send horses to Cranbury and New Holland type auctions. But some of the others I listed I don’t have a problem if somebody sold a horse through those as long as they had an appropriate reserve in place.

Any time you sell your horse either auction or private sale you lose control of that animal and are risking that that horse will eventually be neglected or abused either by the person you sold them to or who they sell them too.

[Simkie]

@OverandOnward

I am at a loss as to why a responsible horse owner would send a horse at auction. There is no screening the buyer, no assurance of what kind of home it is going to, even if the buyer is not a killbuyer. It’s pretty much throwing the horse’s life into the wind, exposing it to any kind of fate, including neglect and abuse.

Sometimes people just HAVE to move a horse. Often they’ve tried to sell it for months with no takers. They’ve tried to give it away. They’ve tried to find a rescue. When no one will take your horse, and you can’t own it anymore, what do you do? A lot of us would euthanise, but not all vets will put down a “healthy” horse. And it’s not inexpensive to do that, anyway–if funds are tight, it may not be an option, even if the vet IS willing.

So you send the horse to a sale and hope for the best. It’s a shitty place to be, but some people truly have no other option.

[Sheila_A]

Just out of curiosity why don’t the rescues go to the auctions and outbid the kill buyers? It seems this is the best way not to line the kill buyers pocket and still get these horses in a good home. They could do the same thing as the kill buyers, sell the horses, take the money and go to the auction and buy more horses just like the kill buyers do.

[Amber_M]

I bought my horse there. I paid them to QT. My horse dropped at least a body score in their care. The before photo could be old, but can’t be that old because the ones that accompany it have the same hip tag that she had on when she showed up.

Pass.

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[OverandOnward]

@Sheila A

Just out of curiosity why don’t the rescues go to the auctions and outbid the kill buyers? It seems this is the best way not to line the kill buyers pocket and still get these horses in a good home. They could do the same thing as the kill buyers, sell the horses, take the money and go to the auction and buy more horses just like the kill buyers do.

Auctions are, in fact, major profit sources for killbuyers, because many killbuyers are auction flippers first. They make their money buying & selling horses on a rapid turnover, using the auctions.

• Many killbuyers flip more horses than they ship to slaughter. Killbuyers/flippers move the horses from auction to auction, upselling enough to keep income coming in. When a ship date to slaughter is coming up, they will buy to stock the truck, then go back to flipping from one auction to another. The end-point slaughter buyer on the border or in Mexico for the slaughter plant is the one who determines what they need and when, and from which buyer. They put out specific orders for specific killbuyers to meet. The rest of the time the killbuyers are working as auction flippers. (Kill pen sales to the public are part of this overall picture. When kill pens advertise the nicer horses and say “ship date” , they mean to the next auction.)

• Some rescues do buy at auction and it’s been fairly well proven that this is the way to go broke fast, as a rescue. The killbuyers know who is buying for the rescues and bid them well up to drain their wallets. If you ever go to a low-end auction in person, you will see immediately how people stand out - professional buyers; looking for a project horse; looking for a family/kid horse; rescue buyer; etc. These buyers all look, act and bid very differently from each other, and they stand out as to their purpose. The pros take it all into account and deal for their own interests.

• Local auctions are a bottomless pit of horses in need, a never-ending flow of need. Regular visits to a local auction drives home the lesson “you cannot save them all”. Some rescues that specialize in certain types of horses (such as Arabians or Walkers) will have spotters who are there on a regular basis who will contact them when their interest comes up. They will step in for certain types of horses that don’t come up every auction. But it is frequently a very expensive source for a rescue, considering that many of their other horses will be surrenders and other low-cost or free sources. And the expense frequently enriches a killbuyer/flipper or someone who sells horses to killbuyers/flippers.

• If killbuyers/flippers see that a rescue buys regularly at auction, they will start finding, acquiring and selling at auction those horses that will specifically interest the rescue. This is known as “rescue bait”. Rescue-bait becomes an endless cycle with little purpose other than enriching killbuyers/flippers at the expense of the rescue and their donors. Certain killbuyers/flippers have even been known to create issues in a previously healthy horse so the rescue will buy it (starvation; lameness; etc.). A very dirty game, but that is what happens all too often when a well-meaning rescue starts buying regularly at auction.

• For all these reasons and more, many rescues have a hard-core policy that they do not buy at auction. It creates more problems for horses than it solves.

• Oh and, funny thing, rescues working as flippers often doesn’t work out financially, either. It is a long and uncertain process to get rescue horses rehabbed and then into permanent homes. Some may not be usable and in need of permanent sanctuary, and it is harder to find adopters for those. There is a capacity limit for how many horses any rescue can support at one time, and that can fill up quickly. And then there are legit questions, when is it a rescue, vs when is it a dealer? The IRS wants to know.

Etc. & so on.

What people who are not familiar with the local-auction world imagine is the way it works, is usually far removed from the way it actually works. Dealing in horses through auctions, with some horses going to slaughter, is a huge business. It’s an industry. It’s been around for generations, and tends to be passed down in families. Once a horse falls into that seam of the horse world it may take some special luck to get out. They will be living in auction pens … until.

[RubyTuesday]

That is just LUDICROUS that people allow that to happen while they are being paid to board! That’s a SERIOUS ripoff they pulled on you!

[OverandOnward]

@Amber_M

I bought my horse there. I paid them to QT. My horse dropped at least a body score in their care. The before photo could be old, but can’t be that old because the ones that accompany it have the same hip tag that she had on when she showed up.

In all honesty what you describe and show is to be expected from time in a killpen. If you buy from Thompsons in La, the gal there will rip you a new one for complaining about it.

Horses are not separated by age, size, gender, etc. They are often in dirt pens in large mixed random groups. There are frequent changes of group members. The socio-dynamics works like a bad third-world prison. The larger and more aggressive horses fare better, the more passive horses don’t do well at all. It is a highly-stressful situation for a horse.

Lesson: Don’t QT at the killpen.

P.S. The “QT” thing is kind of a racket with the killpens, and their cronies if they “QT” at another facility. In what way is it a true “QT”? They are still coming to their new home from contact with random horses at the killpen and in the transport. Plus no state requires QT to ship in a horse across state lines. It’s just a way to charge the buyer even more.

[Amber_M]

@RubyTuesday

That is just LUDICROUS that people allow that to happen while they are being paid to board! That’s a SERIOUS ripoff they pulled on you!

It’s disgusting and I still feel incredible guilt for not knowing, even though I had no way to. I asked for regular pictures and they took them all from the front, it was winter so she just looked fuzzy and dirty.

On arrival I had to ID her from her facial markings, as I was certain it wasn’t the same horse.

[Amber_M]

@OverandOnward

In all honesty what you describe and show is to be expected from time in a killpen. If you buy from Thompsons in La, the gal there will rip you a new one for complaining about it.

Horses are not separated by age, size, gender, etc. They are often in dirt pens in large mixed random groups. There are frequent changes of group members. The socio-dynamics works like a bad third-world prison. The larger and more aggressive horses fare better, the more passive horses don’t do well at all. It is a highly-stressful situation for a horse.

Lesson: Don’t QT at the killpen.

P.S. The “QT” thing is kind of a racket with the killpens, and their cronies if they “QT” at another facility. In what way is it a true “QT”? They are still coming to their new home from contact with random horses at the killpen and in the transport. Plus no state requires QT to ship in a horse across state lines. It’s just a way to charge the buyer even more.

I paid someone that worked there and I believe is some kind of owner/manager/etc (Mike). Was assured that he took her home to his facility. This person was recommended by a few “rescuers” that work with these auctions. All photos I received were her in a (very muddy) pen alone. I don’t think she stayed in the actual auction pens.

Obviously I had no clue what I was doing and I bought a horse sight unseen over the internet. I figured anything was better than staying at the auction, but I honestly think she would have faired better there. Re: the social structure at those places, you are totally right. I can see a lot of fear-borne bad habits that no doubt came from being in a lawless herd of half feral animals.

[amb]

@Sheila A

Just out of curiosity why don’t the rescues go to the auctions and outbid the kill buyers?

I can’t see how it would work otherwise, and there’s a local “rescue” operation that does well doing exactly that. Find likely horses at New Holland or Unadilla, let them chill in QT for four weeks (with food/vet/trim), and then explore their potential. All get soft landings, and many of them turn out very well for one job or another. And yes, a very few have been euthanized, too.

It needs a good eye and a strong stomach, and most especially having a price and absolutely not falling in love with a single horse. There are lots of nice horses, and they sell for more than meat prices, but not a lot more; know how it works, and maybe go to an auction just to watch and get a feel for it. Understand that it’s an auction and you do your own PPE right there standing in the aisle.

[Simkie]

@Sheila A

Just out of curiosity why don’t the rescues go to the auctions and outbid the kill buyers? It seems this is the best way not to line the kill buyers pocket and still get these horses in a good home. They could do the same thing as the kill buyers, sell the horses, take the money and go to the auction and buy more horses just like the kill buyers do.

Rescues DO go directly to the sale, often, but it’s just not as simple as “buy the horses there.” Their budget is far from unlimited and the kill buyers are well aware of that. Kill pen bidders will drive up the price of horses rescues bid on, causing the rescue to blow a budget that really should have been enough for multiple horses on a single one. Sometimes the auction house itself won’t call the bids from the rescue buyers because it’s really just a good ol boys club.

And people seem to really like the “truck is coming!” “I saved a horse!” story. How many times have we heard about horses just waiting in rescue type situations…horses with training, with few limitations, but they sit unsold for months or years? But wave around a few crappy pictures of horses on a kill lot, with a deadline, and people fall all over themselves to pay crazy amounts of money on total unknowns to save those horses.

It’s better to capture these horses before they ever go to the sale. I know of a rescue that offers a $100 purchase price to horses at risk. THAT’s a better way to go about it, IMO. The owner gets some cash, the rescue doesn’t spend the crazy driven up price at sale, and the horse doesn’t sit on the auction lot with all the associated problems there. The rescue also gets some info about the horse directly from the owner, which helps fast track any vet or dental care, along with retraining or tuneup needed before being offered for adoption or sale.

[OverandOnward]

Bottom line buying from auction: killbuyers are flippers, too, and you may be buying from a flipper who also supplies horses to slaughter.

Where did the horse come from? What is its history for medical, training and care?

Those things are usually not possible to know from auction. Also it is usually not possible to do a PPE before purchasing at auction. The buyer has to be prepared to deal with whatever they get, and it may take time to find out exactly what that is.

It is very easy to fall in love with a horse, in their soft-eyed innocence in an unfortunate situation. There needs to be a long-term plan for all eventualities, though.

[OverandOnward]

@Amber_M

I paid someone that worked there and I believe is some kind of owner/manager/etc (Mike). Was assured that he took her home to his facility. This person was recommended by a few “rescuers” that work with these auctions. All photos I received were her in a (very muddy) pen alone. I don’t think she stayed in the actual auction pens.

Obviously I had no clue what I was doing and I bought a horse sight unseen over the internet. I figured anything was better than staying at the auction, but I honestly think she would have faired better there. Re: the social structure at those places, you are totally right. I can see a lot of fear-borne bad habits that no doubt came from being in a lawless herd of half feral animals.

Mike McBarron is the owner/manager of Kaufman’s, if that is who spoke to you. McBarron has been one of the largest slaughter shippers in the United States for many years. He also does sales to private buyers.

Here is an report on his operation, with photos, from an activist organization that is known for doing in-depth investigations. Considering that in the last few weeks that area has had massive amounts of rain, one can imagine what those pens look like now.

https://www.thedodo.com/nations-larg…700826409.html

[Amber_M]

@OverandOnward

It is very easy to fall in love with a horse, in their soft-eyed innocence in an unfortunate situation. There needs to be a long-term plan for all eventualities, though.

No doubt, this is exactly what happened, and I honestly has ZERO expectations of what showed up. I had a pasture board situation ready for her and fully intended to turn her out and let her be a part of the herd. When she showed up that skinny, everything changed… she needed to be blanketed, stalled, separated to feed, etc

I had NO idea of the conditions of his place, and honestly was just trying to get out OUT of the auction. I could have done much better by her had I have known everything I know now, or honestly if I had just reached out to COTH… but live and learn. I’ve guilted myself to saturation point.

[caffeinated]

@Simkie

And people seem to really like the “truck is coming!” “I saved a horse!” story. How many times have we heard about horses just waiting in rescue type situations…horses with training, with few limitations, but they sit unsold for months or years? But wave around a few crappy pictures of horses on a kill lot, with a deadline, and people fall all over themselves to pay crazy amounts of money on total unknowns to save those horses.

Amen and pass the peanuts.

[Amber_M]

@Simkie

And people seem to really like the “truck is coming!” “I saved a horse!” story. How many times have we heard about horses just waiting in rescue type situations…horses with training, with few limitations, but they sit unsold for months or years? But wave around a few crappy pictures of horses on a kill lot, with a deadline, and people fall all over themselves to pay crazy amounts of money on total unknowns to save those horses.

Whenever I get into it with the “kill pen” people (I grabbed my horse out of a shitty auction, I can’t imagine there are too many places that she would have landed ok honestly but there are zero stars in these eyes re: SAVING her life) - this is my only argument, and you’ll have a hard time unraveling it.

The pricing on a breedable 14.2 AQHA papered mare being sold by the “meat buyer” is 3x the price of the same sized grade gelding. A slaughterhouse deals in lbs. It makes zero sense.

[Simkie]

@Amber_M

The pricing on a breedable 14.2 AQHA papered mare being sold by the “meat buyer” is 3x the price of the same sized grade gelding. A slaughterhouse deals in lbs. It makes zero sense.

Why does that make no sense? The registered mare is worth more.

Guys who trade horse flesh like this are perhaps THE BEST at understanding what people will pay for horses. Just because they buy by the pound doesn’t mean that weight is the sole thing they consider when they sell.

[Amber_M]

@Simkie

Why does that make no sense? The registered mare is worth more.

Guys who trade horse flesh like this are perhaps THE BEST at understanding what people will pay for horses. Just because they buy by the pound doesn’t mean that weight is the sole thing they consider when they sell.

That’s how you know that is isn’t about horse meat, is my point. This is how you know they are dealing and using the emotional blackmail of a “ship date”.

[Simkie]

@Amber_M

That’s how you know that is isn’t about horse meat, is my point. This is how you know they are dealing and using the emotional blackmail of a “ship date”.

It’s never been about horse meat These guys have always flipped horses. There’s just A LOT more visibility now, and a whole new audience.

[Guilherme]

@OverandOnward

I am at a loss as to why a responsible horse owner would send a horse at auction. There is no screening the buyer, no assurance of what kind of home it is going to, even if the buyer is not a killbuyer. It’s pretty much throwing the horse’s life into the wind, exposing it to any kind of fate, including neglect and abuse.

In years past I’ve bought a number of Walkers from auctions. For several years I worked one of the gates at the annual PWHAT auction. I’ve attended them as far away as Brazil. As there are good and bad horses and horsemen so are there are good and bad auctions.

Sometimes folks have to move a horse fast as they have suffered some personal catastrophe (usually but not always financial) and moving their horse(s) on down the road is not an option it’s a necessity.

If you are in such good financial condition that you can pick and choose among buyers then God Bless You. You are, however, a member of an elite club and not all horse owners are so fortunate.

G.