I totally agree with teaching a horse to lower it’s head. I think by calling that “turning off the brachiocephalic muscle”, the goal is to sound like this a new/advanced concept. I bought my guy from an Amish dealer - he was broke to drive only. He was also significantly under weight and had some feet issues to deal with that delayed my starting him under saddle for a couple of months. In that time, I installed the “head down” button - when I touch his side (similar to where my leg is when I ride) he lowers his head. He is a big horse, so we use this button a lot! Haltering, bridling, when he sees the guys with the leaf blower… you get the idea. I consider all of this training, so that’s when this stuff get pulled out like “NO ONE is talking about the THORACIC SLING” - just because you put a new name on it, doesn’t make it new. Just my humble opinion though.
Interesting. The muscle attachment you are talking about, is that not an entirely different muscle than the brachiocephalic muscles, the trapezius?
I can see the attraction to tweaking small parts of a horse’s posture to change how they move. I’m having trouble envisioning how “unblocking” a muscle that is, quite literally, designed to stabilize the neck and controls up/down movement of the neck is a fix to general postural issues. How did those postural issues arise? Did the horse come by it honestly vis a vis conformation? Pain? Work? Is this methodology not treating the symptom versus treating the underlying problem?
I’m running into a different qualm with this school of thought. That “neck bracing” that is being referred to is a fundamental part of horse morphology. They brace that part of their neck to stabilize the neck, disguise hind end lameness, control movement, and brace against pain. It’s one of the biggest hurdles I think people with KS and CA horses face: the horse cannot “unbrace” this segment of their body.
A sidetrack: I see more horses with overdeveloped trapezius/rhombodeius muscles than anything else. I have noticed it now in many client horses formally diagnosed with cervical arthritis.
First off, I can’t believe we’re still talking about this, lol! Secondly, here’s the “Secret”: In hand, you have your horse lower and stretch out their neck so that muscle is “loose/slack/relaxed”, whichever word helps you visualize that. Then, once you’ve mastered that, you walk forward a couple steps. Got that? Then, you halt with the horse in that position, and have them back up a step or two. Mastered that? Then, when you come to the halt, instead of backing you have them “yield their forehand/turn on the haunches” (whichever idea appeals to you) This is all while having the neck low/relaxed. That’s it!
Well, we’re “still talking about it” because any time someone asks for specific exercises on how this improves a horse’s balance in true dressage work, they are given vague Mystikal Lip Service for how the answer to all their horse’s problems lies in what is essentially a subscription service disguised as a training program.
How does the exercise above correlate to ridden work or collection? It seems antithetical to what collection is. You’re asking a horse to lower its neck and transfer weight to the forehand in these exercises. Collection is the opposite - the neck is raised with the poll the highest point of the body, the frame is shortened, and the hind end is engaged and under the body.
Yup! You can’t really “turn off” one muscle without asking another to take up the slack or you’re going to end up with a horse with its nose on the ground.
IMO, to turn off the brachiocephalic muscles, the trapezius (going off your name, because I am too lazy to check anatomy when it sounds right lol) needs to step up and do a bigger job than it otherwise might choose to do.
The only qualm here is that which muscles used to raise the neck play a vital role in whether the collection is good or bad or completely fake and hollow. If we teach the horse to find the right muscles in the easiest way possible (through lowering the neck which also helps relax the back and open the shoulders) we’ve got a higher chance of making a better horse in the long run, with true collection.
If we proceed through the levels with a horse without addressing bracing of the underneck muscles, we might still get there in time, but the likelihood of it being correct and comfortable for the rider is somewhat less.
Do you have any video examples of a upper level horse who has followed this program and is completing correct collected work? Or before/after videos of a upper level horse using this program to improve their dressage and underneck?
Wait, whoa, hang on there, I am in NO way advocating for the woowoo!
For normal, well-bred, purpose-bred dressage horses, a lot of the nitpicky stuff I said does not need to be a whole separate chapter in their baby horse syllabus - it happens naturally as we progress from baby horse outline to more upper level outline as long as we are letting their development bring them up and are not forcing them to come up in their neck because that’s where we think they should be.
So, yeah, look at any upper level horse that isn’t smooshed into a frame, is working well over its back and has been brought along systematically and you’ll find they have all done this work without actually having done the work.
It’s the ones that are challenging in posture/brain/naturally upside down muscling, that, IMO, need a whole separate chapter in their baby horse syllabus, or like mine, a rehab chapter because I stupidly missed a giant building block along the way.
To further explain the pushing around of the shoulders, etc., any horse who can change flexion from inside to outside without losing balance or bracing their neck is doing the work required to “turn off” the bad muscles and “turn on” the good ones.
I hope that explains my POV, my personal experience, and my observations a bit better?
This is a super important point, and touches a bit on a slight tangential point (which I’ll comment on first).
Re: the tangential issue: At no point does Celeste say you can’t ride your horse. She definitely wants you to do this under saddle, too! But like many things in training, it’s often easier to start on the ground. Then at the walk. Then you add the trot, then eventually canter. If someone is doing this from the ground for months without riding, that’s on them. I started this more or less as my horse began rehabbing for a suspensory issue, so it actually worked out (we were playing around with it a bit before hand).
The next part, after you’ve taught the horse to disengage the brachiocephalicus, is that you teach them to engage the pectorals and thoracic sling muscles. So the idea is teach them how to carry their forehand without engaging the under-neck muscles. Super important point: Celeste is the anatomist, not me. She goes into wayyyyyy more detail about this kind of stuff than I can convey here. That’s kind of her specialty, and I won’t do it justice. But yes, something has to be engaged in order for the horse to not end up a puddle on the floor lol.
Beowulf, regarding your specific question, collection is not the focus of what Celeste teaches, she’s teaching the anatomy and a process to improve posture. As far as I know, she makes no claims about teaching collection. My perspective, as a DQ, is that since collection isn’t really a neck issue (it’s about bending the joints of the hind legs and taking more weight behind), the process, as it would relate to dressage, is to 1) teach the horse they can move without the brach engaged, 2), teach the horse to engage the other muscles that carry the neck and shoulders, and then 3) teach the horse how to collect (if this is what you do in your discipline).
As an example, as I’ve said before I ride FEI, and we’ve been chasing soundness issues for about a year (which is partly what led me down this path, as the soundness issues resulted in a lot of tension and bracing, which became evident in our scores). When we thought it was KS, I spent a lot of time riding my horse (in btw injections, etc) super long and low, stretching, etc, doing slow, long and low lateral work, to build core strength and increase space btw the dorsal spinous processes. The horse was getting better about keeping the underneck relaxed under saddle, but I didn’t put much effort into her posture and self-carriage the other 23 hours a day. Eventually, we realized it was PSD, then the horse had surgery. While rehabbing from that, we’ve had plenty of time to work on Celeste’s method from the ground. Now I’m back in the saddle (though still just doing ~10 minutes trotting), and I’ve done most of it super long and stretchy. The other day, though, I started to ask her to come up a bit in the trot - just maybe 45-60 seconds at a time, and maybe a second level frame (so not much collection relatively speaking). And when she does it, she feels fantastic - the under neck is loose, the pecs and TS engaged… it’s wonderful. Notably, this horse has always been harder to relax her neck in the trot, easier in the canter, so this was especially encouraging.
As I’ve said up-thread, I sorta know what I’m doing, though, so I don’t attribute everything I’m feeling to her method (and while I was rehabbing the KS, I could feel these types of effects in the canter, and it was similarly spectacular!). Dressage, done correctly, is supposed to teach the horse these things automatically! The problem is it often doesn’t. Celeste’s method has given me an approach and knowledge to know that I can ask for more relaxation there, more disengagement in the underneck, and to not just be satisfied with “it looks good enough”.
So did I need Celeste’s method to get here? Probably not, I was more-or-less on the way anyway, from my experience as an FEI rider, and what I’ve learned about KS rehab. Has her method helped me and my horse? ABSOLUTELY. Then again, I’m a perfectionist, so I appreciate the level of relaxation she pushes for in the posture. If you (general you, not you specifically), are ok with “mostly fine” (enough “fine” that most trainers won’t see a problem), then it’s probably not necessary.
Totally agree with this. I’ve said it upthread, but the stuff Celeste is teaching is supposed to be part of any good dressage training. The problem is that it often doesn’t get taught well. The best evidence is when things get hard - does your horse brace in transitions? Or the rein-back? IMO, 95% of horses in the rein-back brace, at least for a step or two, if not the whole movement. That is a tell that the horse hasn’t fully embraced how to carry their neck and shoulders without bracing, and they still keep that part of their body at the ready.
(I hope I’m doing right by Celeste’s method with all these posts - again, I’m not really advocating one or way or another, as I don’t care what people do with their horses or money, but I’ve found it helpful. Maybe someone else will, too. For those on the fence, honestly, you might get more out of a 1:1 with one of her trainers.)
I’m wondering if maybe those nice talented UL-prospects you mention don’t need these exercises, because they are already naturally there. They are bred to be supple and elastic and that frame comes naturally for them. I could see working on relaxation and bringing the head/neck down working fantastically on horses that struggle with tension or past physical issues. It’d probably work great for one of my TBs, who maybe could have been supple and elastic if he hadn’t raced for a decade. On the other hand, I think it would be counterintuitive for my WB mare. I have the opposite problem with her, she is a bit too relaxed and the last thing I want to do is encourage her to travel low and on the forehand.
The WB breeders really did something right with the direction they’ve bred their UL youngsters. They are born being able to carry a 1st level frame. I barely had 15 rides on my WB filly and she was tracking up and in a 1st level outline, though I was not asking for it and was working on her rhythm, which she also naturally had. It took me months to achieve this with my TB (probably because he raced). It really felt like I was sitting on a horse who was born with the first two fundamentals of the dressage scale bred into her. It’s genetics, and something that offbreeds can struggle with especially if they had another career (like racing) first.
Another good point! Not every horse walks around braced in the underneck, but let’s face it - most do to some degree or another. For those who naturally relax the brachiocephalicus, I say how lucky for the owner! lol.
And you’re totally right that many quality warmbloods do have a natural tendency to naturally carry themselves in an nice, relaxed frame, due to excellent breeding. But what happens as they move up the levels? The work gets harder, their ammy owner that sits at a computer all day and stiffly climbs into the saddle 5 times a week… do they maintain that natural relaxation as they introduce canter half pass, pirouettes, piaffe/passage? I think dressage would do well to pay more explicit attention to this issue, rather than assuming it will work itself out with good training. Mostly because, let’s face it, most trainers aren’t that good. Does Olivia Lagoy-Weltz, Stephen Peters, or Adrienne Lyle need to do this work? No. They know how to train horses correctly lol. But I 100% believe your average trainer could (and should!) focus more on this issue.
I think that’s basically what I said? It sort of happens naturally because all the blocks fit together as they should - the glue holding the blocks together just needs to be made stronger so they can travel up the levels to full collection.
The more difficult ones may have all the blocks, but they’re in a nice box with a picture on the front of it, just waiting for someone to come along and either patiently put them together piece by piece or grab a glue gun and sort of jam them into a roughly flattish modern art thing that looks like pieces of a horse, but nothing like what’s on the jigsaw puzzle box 
Right. I was building off of your point about the UL riders having done this work without having done this “work” (read: the froufrou biomechanical names thrown around for what is good old fashioned correct, proper work). I think the WB breeders in particular have just gotten ahead of the game here breeding for animals that don’t struggle to be balanced, rhythmic, or uphill. That’s very far from the ex-NH QH that has PSSM that the owner still wants to work, or the TB with years of racetrack baggage that an aspiring amateur is aiming towards a second career in eventing.
In reality, people don’t go looking for answers unless they have something that isn’t working for them. Which begs the question of the demographic TTHW services: are likely well-meaning owners who have pursued other avenues for their horses and aren’t seeing the results they want? If so it’s easy to see how they could be exploited by a subscription service that promises to fix their problems: they’re willing to do anything – even critically dismantle their own training – to try to help their horse. Maybe they have hit a wall with their current progress due to soundness issues (see posts above) or they training issues they have to unravel. Which is really where my burning question comes into play on whether this is not treating the symptoms versus the cause here. What caused the pathological bracing, the malfunctioning musculature? Pain? Genetics? Work?
That may be why there is not sufficient evidence of an UL horse having benefited from this work available to us in video format, since the work might only benefit horses who will never be sound or strong enough to do more than 1st level.
Mike Schaffer’s first book had some great exercises for “turning off the brach. muscle”. He advocated for soft flexions in-hand and massaging of muscle ‘knots’ in the lower neck to encourage horses to release and stretch over the top. Whatever one may think of Mike (he took a beating on this forum), his first book was really good. I had a lesson recently with a German trainer from QLD who is very highly respected in Aus, and would you know it, some of the exercises he had me do were ones that feature in Mike’s book. Funny how that happens some times!
The information is out there.
Not familiar with Mike, but you’re correct in saying that this information has been out there for years. Hilary Clayton comes to mind MOST quickly.
I get it, I just think it’s funny. I’m not one for the Mystical/Woo woo/I know better than EVERYONE else/I have a secret, blah blah. Which is why I shared “the mystery”, LOL. I just can’t believe folks would spend $$ with her when they could have gotten it all by either having a USDF membership (which recently published a few articles on engaging your horse’s “core” or buying a Hilary Clayton book. It’s stuff that’s been around for awhile. It’s just being dispensed a bit differently this time around. 
You’re right, if you’re doing correct dressage work, you don’t need the mystical maiden because you’re already doing it. Voila!!!
This is what gets me.
There’s clearly plenty of people who are receptive to the “Pssst, you’re doing everything WRONG” type of marketing*, and the venn diagram of these folks, and people who spend their lives riding first level while minutely examining the head carriage of every UL dressage horse on the internet and declaring that they are also doing it WRONG, is for the most part a circle.
*(Which, you’ll note, is often targeted to women. See for example all the “You’ve been doing XYZ wrong for years” clickbait around out there. Everything from how your bra fits to what household cleaning products you use can be secretly wrong, and the solution is always to buy whatever product. It pretty much INSTANTLY sticks in my craw and cause my middle finger to commence upward trajectory.)
@no.stirrups 's attempt, upthread, to sell me a saddle was case in point: first we came out of the woodwork to sh*t all over everything my horse and I were doing based on astute analysis of two walk pictures 
, then the suggestion that we refer ourselves to Celeste’s program for a while to fix the horse , so that we might, after some remedial work, at last be ready to purchase an entirely new saddle . (Presumably from no.stirrups, who it just so happens to turn out is a saddle fitter.) Oh ok, let me get right on that.
Meanwhile, improving gradually over time is relative: if your horse isn’t instantly transformed after one clinic with whoever you are currently riding with, but rather you are satisfied with gradual improvement over time, that means you are doing it ALL WRONG and riding with all the wrong people, but when it comes to the advocated method, then taking several weeks to do in hand work in the arena at the halt and walk is a sign that you are doing it RIGHT.
What you should really do, to try to climb out of your abject hole of all around WRONGNESS, is stop everything, buy access to a collection of Facebook lives, and when you’ve adequately repented over there, you will finally be ready to buy a new saddle.
Yep, getting right on it.
Meanwhile, could Celeste’s program potentially be a useful addition to what you (g) are already doing? Sure. I happily attended (and paid to do so) a demonstration put on by an equine body worker that was organized by my then barn owner, listened attentively, and learned a few things. But the second the “everything everyone is doing is WRONG” culture gets going, I’m over and out.
I’ve been a USDF member for YEARS and I assure you, this info is not in any of their educational materials. And while Hilary Clayton is brilliant and wonderful when it comes to core strength, this isn’t really something she covers, either. (BTMM isn’t really about core strength, so kinda unrelated.)
First thought on this is horsie needs a new farrier before someone blows a bunch of money on posture training.
