Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

[173north]

Oh, I have no clue who he is - the book was cheap on Kindle, I needed some core strengthening ideas and I generally trust Trafalgar Square as a publisher. I didn’t know there were shades of Klassical Dressage about him but I mostly hang out in hunter/jumper land!

This is what Horse and Hound said about him in their review…

“Visconte Simon Cocozza spent his childhood in Rome, Italy, but he was educated in England, took his BHS exams and studied equine business management at Warwickshire College. He initially worked as a trainer in the UK, before returning to mainland Europe, where he studied with a number of mentors and became driven to discover the unifying principles behind Greek, Roman and the Renaissance Schools to find ways of helping each and every horse be as healthy, happy and useful as they can be. While based in France, he became the first non-French national to earn the Brevet Professionnel and become a trainer and examiner for the La Fédération Française d’Equitation (FFE). He is currently based in Wiltshire, England, where he hosts residential Core Conditioning for Horses training courses, as well as coaching bio-mechanically sound training techniques internationally.”

[Lunabear1988]

Well if I end up exploring this program more, I will report back about my experiences.

[AW]

I’ve audited a couple of clinics Simon has done. He’s anything but woo-woo and is very straighforward. From what I can tell his only goal is to help riders help their horses move more correctly.

[normandy_shores]

I follow her on FB and have no doubt she does good work.

That said, the presentation of photos for her movement method irks me. There’s always a line drawn on the foreleg inside the circle showing a more upright laterally balanced posture, but the two comparison photos aren’t in the same phase of the trot. Inevitably the one where the balance is tilted inwards and the scapula is laid back and the line is far from vertical is where that inside leg is extended. Of course the line drawn won’t be vertical and the scapula will be laid back. Of course, the “after” and balanced photo has that inside fore on the ground, so the appearance of the line drawn from shoulder to hoof is more vertical and scapula isn’t pushed back because that leg isn’t in extension.

I think photos can absolutely demonstrate good before and afters, but I hate when they’re presented and not comparing apples to apples and they’re misleading.

[Lostcoast]

I have had her work on my horse when I was still exploring what was bothering him. She was all about the thoracic sling and the ridden exercises. I think they would be useful to some riders. Unfortunately my horse had ECVM so they made him worse and I took him to UC Davis where they recommended he be euthanized. This is not against her in any way just an experience in the road of figuring out what is wrong with a horse…

[beowulf]

In that case, he sounds anything but a woo-woo practitioner! Thank you for educating me.

[Lunabear1988]

I was thinking that I bet if sent video of my (now euthanized) wobblers horse, that I would get all kinds of recommendations for exercises. But nothing would have made him okay or safe.

I’m sorry for your loss and I’m sorry that you had that experience. A good reminder that while body work ridden exercises can be very helpful, real diagnostics are very important. They can surprise anyone with what’s actually going on.

[cnm161]

@beowulf

In that case, he sounds anything but a woo-woo practitioner! Thank you for educating me.

I dunno man, anybody calling themselves Visconte whatever in 2022 definitely triggers all my woo-woo alarms.

[Xanthoria]

A friend in Denver recommended Celeste after working w her directly. I reached out and Celeste said she’s “planning on being back in Arcata hopefully in May/July and then I’ll be in Morgan hill the last week of June but we’re still finalizing dates”

From talking to my friend it does seem like in person is the way to go, as Celeste will teach your horse exercises by getting on herself, then teach you how to do the follow up.

[knic]

Can you give a general flavor of the exercises? Is manual stretching, certain patterns in hand and then under saddle, etc?

I would be curious about incorporating some of this sort of work into a rehab program but hate to pay for a consultation to find out it the basics of what it is…

[Training_Cupid]

That is the format of her clinics - first she observes the horse on a lunge line and under saddle. Then based on her observations does body work, followed by in hand exercises, followed by ridden exercises. I don’t know how the online consults work.

[enjoytheride]

It frankly to me feels a bit like the Art 2 Ride people that spend years on the lunge line or walking waiting for their horses to be “ready” for more. The blogger suddenly couldn’t get her horse to trot for days? After showing reasonably well at 3rd?

I don’t think a trainer has the right to make people feel so bad about their horses that they quit riding, or showing, or that ANY trainer can say “I’m the only one who can fix what’s wrong with you.” or “if you don’t ride the way I say you need to ride, you’ll ruin your horse.” I ride with biomechanics instructors and I get a lot of benefit from it, but I wouldn’t ride with one who made me feel like that.

[Training_Cupid]

I’m sorry if you somehow got that impression, as that is not at all the experience I’ve had with Celeste. I see her once or twice a year and she never makes me feel bad about what I do in the interim. She is very supportive and encouraging, and I feel her work supplements whatever else you do.
Also another thing I like is her varied background- she grew up with both dressage and bridle horses, then went on to compete in show jumping at a fairly high level. She works with people across all disciplines, and respects and accommodates those different traditions and works towards goals inherent in that - though of course the basics are fairly similar.

[alisa]

Reviving this old thread to see if anyone is part of her Masterclass group on facebook? I’ve paid the $150 to join but I’m finding the resources to be pretty… meager. There are a few Q&A videos of Celeste answering questions (but her “lectures” are extremely unstructured, very difficult to make sense of, and presume a basic understanding of what’s going on), and some written stuff about the pillars, but nothing that shows how to start with the process, what to look for, how to evaluate how it’s going, etc. Lots of posts showing being/after pics and videos, folks extolling the virtues of the system, Celeste and others standing around while horses lick and chew, but nothing to get someone started with the method. I even wrote a post asking if I missed such a resource, and the admins declined it

I swear I’m not that stupid - I have an advanced degree, a successful career, and a successful, self-trained FEI horse - I know how to find information. I just can’t for the life of me figure out how to get started correctly with her process. Has anyone else been able to muddle their way through, or is my only option to pay for a private session? (Which I can’t do with a horse as we have poor cell service at the barn and no wifi). Did I just screw myself out of $150? What am I missing?

[no.stirrups]

Update I’ve had some time to revisit the Masterclass for the first time in a few months and there are lots of new resources and restructuring. Definitely worthwhile.

I joined a few weeks ago, too.
I agree it leaves a lot to be desired. The structure is loose, for sure. It’s given me some food-for-thought, but not (IMO) $150 worth. On the other hand, I have much stronger biomechanics knowledge that most. I think the content/method does speak to an unmet need in a way that is accessible to the masses. There are a LOT of people in the world that would benefit from doing this work, and I have referred a few people to the group in spite of its weaknesses.
As to why “thoracic sling” is a hot topic, it’s been recognized for a very long time that many people are trying to do advanced work without laying a proper foundation, that young horses are being put “on-the-bit” before they are ready, that most horses are not turned out enough and not exposed to varied terrain enough if at all. I think all of these things (and more) have led to a veritable pandemic of horses whose thoracic sling is not functioning properly. It’s actually quite rare to see a horse with healthy posture. Horses are so incredibly generous that they try to do as we ask in spite of this, like in the blog post linked above. The Masterclass draws attention to that and provides instruction for the beginner steps in remediating it.
It’s another way of saying, “get your horse’s back up” which has always been a component of correct work, but starting at the most basic level because even just standing in the pasture, some horses have forgotten how to use their postural muscles correctly and can’t really get their backs up.
Ideally, all trainers would be well-versed an anatomy and biomechanics and wouldn’t settle for anything less than correct work and none of this would be necessary. In real life, few trainers have that knowledge, many of us are working without trainers anyway, and a lot of trainers who do know compromise because their clients will only keep paying them if they progress up the levels in a timely manner so they press on in spite of poor biomechanics.
I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about the biomechanics of anything I’ve seen presented in the Masterclass.
I hope my disjointed ramblings are useful to someone.

[alisa]

Thank you, this is very validating. And I totally agree that the material seems solid - all very consistent with what I’ve learned from both French and German dressage perspectives, so no qualms there. It’s just the teaching style that I can’t wrap my head around lol.

I was referred to the group by a friend who warned me that the teaching style leaves a lot to be desired. But if you can figure out what’s going on, it seems like a great way to approach the issue from a different and very basic perspective, because, as you stated, so many horses would benefit from this. Without my friend describing to me what she thought she learned from it, I think I would have been genuinely confused. But yes, not really worth $150 at the moment, as I just don’t have time to sift through all the videos of people just showing their glowing results - I need to see how to get those results! Oh well, lesson learned.

[MapleBreeze]

What motivates people to spend money on things like that? Is it just the name? Good marketing and “secrecy” of the method?

But seriously, im.always intrigued by what motivates people to buy.

[alisa]

Not sure if you’re aware, but your post comes off as being super judgmental. Not sure if that’s the tone you were going for.

But to answer your question (since I’m here), desperation to get your horse sound from seemingly intractable pain/discomfort, for starters. I’ve spent thousands on vet bills at this point, so $150 to learn how to teach my horse how to have better posture to stop contributing to the pain seems well, well worth it. $150 is about what I pay for clinicians around here anyway, so I don’t think it’s an unfair price.

I don’t think I would have joined had a trusted friend not validated the course for me. But maybe if I got even more desperate…

[MapleBreeze]

I dont mean it to be judgemental at all - what motivates people to buy? Thanks for the insight - so its the hope of fixing a horse with soundness issues.

[sascha]

Edit Feb 27, 2023 - Dear TTHW Disciples, don’t bother liking this, I got a LOT smarter about Celeste Leilani’s shenanigans a bit later in the thread

I haven’t yet, but have a friend recommending because they think it might help solve an issue that I’ve never had before but can’t seem to solve with current horse. It’s not a lameness. It is posture and as much as a huge, huge difference has already been made, I am at a loss to fill in the final holes, despite having done the type of ridden work as I’ve done with many other horses and not having this problem with any others.

Friend also sent me some images of their horse’s postural transformation. Truly remarkable. My curiosity has been piqued.

And like the poster above said, $150 and a bunch of time investment to sift through is not so bad at all when you consider that no-one else has any answers. <- I think I may have just talked myself into kissing a few bucks buhbye