Yes, I have no idea why it’s so triggering that people might like to experience someone’s else’s take on teaching it through a few ground work exercises that can be easily translated to under saddle work. That’s all it is. You do pay your trainer to teach you things right? I assume you’ve ridden with more than one, and each one has taught you something different about how to achieve the same thing.
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You may think you’re not defending her and that I am criticizing the people who paid for information from an unreliable (probably unethical) source. But from my perspective, it’s the opposite. I definitely don’t condone gadgets and harsh bits - I pulled my current horse from that situation and have spent years and lots of $$$ working to undo that. But those aren’t the only two options! I’m disagreeing with saying “she’s not so bad. Sure some of her stuff is sketchy, and some people’s horses have been hurt by the “nerve release” stuff. But some of it is useful!” To me, that’s like saying “sure my trainer uses harsh bits and gadgets on other people’s horses, but she taught me how to back my horse up from the ground without bracing! Worth it!” So I’m not sure what part of what I said you’re disagreeing with…
ETA: and I certainly don’t criticize the people who have tried it. Since most info is behind a paywall, it’s challenging to do your due diligence prior to committing. Which is the whole point of this thread, IMO.
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I think what’s triggering about it is charging $3-5K for a “secret method” that Celeste has apparently discovered, when in reality, people have been training horses to go in self-carriage for quite a few centuries.
I get that many riders struggle with horses being on the forehand, braced in the neck, and hollow, which is obviously not the ideal posture for carrying a rider. It’s great that people want to help their horses carry a rider more correctly. But there are many ways of training this and many trainers who are totally open and transparent about how they do it, using methods tried and true through years of horsemanship.
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Yes I cannot speak to her bodywork, only the BTTM exercises which I think are really actually quite useful and elegant (and I paid $150 to learn, not thousands). I’ve also paid hundreds to participate in a jump clinic with an Olympic rider (not US) who absolutely abused my horse and destroyed her confidence. So I consider this a safer investment.
On the other hand, her nerve release stuff may be legit but I haven’t seen anything so I can’t say. I certainly wouldn’t sign up for a session without knowing more. She is working with a number of vets so who knows, maybe it is legitimate. Her stated reason for not showing the bodywork techniques online is that she doesn’t want people to hurt their horses by practicing things they aren’t trained to do. That is not a bad thing. It’s that or she doesn’t want to get sued if people do this stuff on their own and hurt their horses. Probably that too.
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I’ve done a lot of yoga and bodywork stuff like the Alexander method on my own body, and so much of the defenses of this sounds like the quacky adjacent practitioners (versus the legitimate ones) I occasionally run into in that world.
“I’m going on a detox under the $$$ supervision of a holistic healer.”
“Um you do know that’s what the liver is for, a juice cleanse will not detox your body?”
“At least I’m not eating McDonald’s like some people!”
“But you could just eat more fruits and vegetables and NOT eat McDonald’s rather than drink 800 calories of $20 juices?”
“I’m working with an Ayurvedic practitioner. They’ve prescribed special foods and exercises for my dosha.”
“Um, you could just work with a nutritionist and maybe a physical trainer. This stuff has kind of been discounted by advances in medical science.”
“At least I’m not taking drugs to lose weight and sitting in front of the TV all day.”
“You could just eat more fruits and vegetables and maybe do more strength and cardio?”
“I’m trying to be heathy and you aren’t supporting my journey!”
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Also, for the people who have been “behind the curtain” both in-person and in the group – does she or her admins/trainers ever recommend that the horse be seen by a veterinarian? So much of what we deal with as dressage riders is from underlying medical issues. While the groundwork may be innocuous and probably beneficial, if the horse is dealing with soft tissue injury in the hind end, rocking the weight back could absolutely be painful for your horse and exacerbate an issue.
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LOL, it is always more alluring to have a secret or hack, rather than taking the obvious path towards a goal. When I lost 50# several years ago, people would ask what my secret was, and look so disappointed when I said healthy eating and lots of exercise.
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SAME! “You look pretty good for your age, what is your secret?” “Um, I cleaned up my diet and I exercise a lot, no big fancy program or anything.”
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Yes, I have seen this. She actually is quite cautious in the group. If your horse is really uncomfortable with any of the exercises she (and admins) advise there is likely pain and that it should be checked out an addressed (feet, saddle, vet etc). My horse had pain that I worked for a long time to resolve with vets and farriers and bodyworkers etc. By the time I found the BTTM stuff (through a biomechanics and chiro FB group) she was feeling pretty good and moved through the exercises easily. A year ago, they would have been hard for her—it was a good way for me to check out her progress, and a decent tool to see if she might be getting uncomfortable again.
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You don’t need to go ‘behind the curtain.” She states in on podcast interviews.
I understand that – what I was asking was when she/her reps are commenting on people’s specific horses and situations, does that enter the conversation.
What I have witnessed is the opposite. Grand promises that she can fix your horse and that diseases like PSSM and ECVM don’t actually exist, but are instead simply impinged nerves that need releasing.
One of the scary accounts was a rider early on in the group who was encouraged to ride her diagnosed EPM horse heavy on the forehand in lieu of “turning off the brachiocephalicus” in order to magickly heal the diagnosed EPM. The videos were nothing short of horrifying.
There were many heavy insinuations that vets are under qualified and should not be trusted. Major major red flags in my book. Not to mention repeated attacks on veterinarian accounts outside of the group by THWs own acolytes…
I witnessed knowledgeable amateurs face heavy attacks from acolytes and THW herself for seeking veterinarian diagnosis when the Pillars and nerve release did not offer any benefit for their horse. It appeared that they became a threat because their experience did not fit the narrative being sold. Which is absurd, not every method will fit every horse, and not every pathology can be magickly cured by teaching the horse basic self carriage…
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What?!?
Sounds like another case of “Who Needs Science When You Have Woo and Foo-Foo?”
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Which is all well and fine, until specifics are used as a way to try to undermine a point by attacking a characterization that doesn’t even match the person being addressed.
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I’d like to see the receipts because I’ve seen nothing like that. But I haven’t really immersed myself in the “group”—just the video guides.
There was a recent post by an admin in the group with an anatomical dissection of a horse with ECvM, though. Definitely real, definitely sad.
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Mmm but that’s not what happened. I said you were either smug OR projecting. I have my answer now.
I don’t see a lot of the behavior you’ve described in the BTTM group but I haven’t been in there long and I hate group work. I’ll take your word, but I have just don a quick search of the group for EPM and ECVM — she talks about how postural rehab can help horses recovering from EPM (after treatment for the protozoa). That’s not really consistent with what you’re saying.
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I am neither smug nor projecting, nor does any of this have anything to do with the conversation.
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It does actually. When you persist in calling me a fool for parting with my money for a product that I actually found useful, it’s fair to say you are smug. When you accuse me and others of saying things we didn’t say, I think it’s fair call into question your own recall of the facts. I find your characterizations of the BTTM group to be wildly different from what I’ve seen with my own eyes. And I’m not surprised now at all given how you have willfully misunderstood me from the start.
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I was the one who used the phrase that a fool and their money were soon parted. And I did not use it in reference to the FB group, I used it in direct response to the $3-5k nerve release course or whatever the latest level of MLM/cult/scam TTHW is running.
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Again, you’re projecting accusations onto me that I never did or said. It is just really difficult to take your word on your experience when you so loudly claim you don’t participate in the group, you don’t pay attention beyond the learning video initially presented in the course, you “hate groupwork,” and the repeated accusations against myself specifically for statements I never made. Given all of this, I am afraid I can’t trust your word here.
Thank you @K_VanOlst for confirming this.
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