I lost all interest and respect for this podcast when I got to the part where the vet insisted KS was not genetic and foals did not have it. We[g] know foals have it. We’ve seen it.
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“Despite having little to no peer-reviewed published papers about the issue, Dr. Audrey DeClue takes this episode to discuss what she has personally learned while dealing with shoulder girdle injuries in sport horses.”
Yeah… anecdotes aren’t evidence, lady. Does Dr. Clayton know this lady is using her research to claim predisposition to kissing spine is not genetic? /hj
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This is why i hate the biomechanics buzzword. Its like 50 flavors of soft ice cream.
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I saw this post today and I don’t really know a lot about the original poster but I thought it was a little relevant to this discussion. I’m not saying that The “travelling horse witch” does this or not, but it is a very good point overall.
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Seeing this stuff IRL after a bit of education is surprisingly easy. Seeing it off decent video isn’t that hard. Seeing it off photo stills can always be argued it’s a moment in time.
My coach taught me how to see balance years ago and I can’t not see it. I sit at traffic lights watching humans on the crosswalk heavy on the forehand, dragging their hinds, not tracking up, winging and paddling.
I took aged school master mare in a first level dressage test several years ago. We got points off for being on the forehand in a canter transition. I pshawed that but then looked at the video and yes, she did fall on the forehand for a stride before she pulled herself together. The judge had a good eye. So video is useful plus yes, a moment in time matters and can lose you dressage points as well as indicate basic issues with the horse.
Falling on the forehand was elderly mare’s longtime issue, and honestly she was holding it together well for her age. She could collect nicely too. My own younger horse came with a naturally high head and more problems with being above the bit, back a bit inverted, not tracking up behind. So lots of time fixing that to get a normal trot.
It’s easy to mystify these things but honestly not that hard to see IRL once you stop focusing on head position.
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Absolutely!! I think part of her point too was how easily photos can be manipulated and how misleading posts can be to the inexperienced. Especially when there is money to be made.
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People will believe a lot of things you put on fb. If its halfway unintelligable it sells more. If it is intelligeable local competing trainers will hate you more. Just one tiny thing needs to make sense and you have a sale.
Seeing and doing are 2 different things.
Getting the balance on a difficult horse and getting the neck on a challenging horse…but thats dressage 101 so why does it need to be packaged and marketed as magikal unicorn juice.
Its so easy to read a fb post and agree, “makes sense”. It is so hard to go get that same result with the correct feeling on your own horse.
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What’s funny is I first heard about this person/program through a blog that I have read for a few years. That’s what intrigued me. Then I found them on Facebook and it actually made me more skeptical after seeing the social media.
I think social media, including coth, can be very useful but it’s definitely not a replacement for regular and high quality instruction in person!
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I saw the still photos with lines drawn on them and my gut reaction was annoyance, lol … until I read the words and was pleasantly surprised to see they were advocating for skepticism of self-proclaimed “biomechanics experts!”
I made a similar post myself a while back … I used two screenshots of my horse free-longeing at the trot, half a stride apart … and drew red downward arrows on the one from the “weight bearing” phase, and pretty green rounded upward arrows on the one from the “pushing” moment in his trot, lol
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Interesting. I would really like to know how my eye compares to paid evaluators/judges. I want to be able to see it! Maybe i already do?.. need to watch and see what official experts say about what is happening. (maybe i should learn to scribe…but scribes don’t get to watch, right?) My coach says that my heightened proprioception has aided my riding… and learning how aids work on my mounts. It is like a weird reverse autism thing, (i know, i’ve been tested)… (ASD …we come-with sort of an automatic proprioception disorder) and my own symptoms are different, but…it’s like it’s twisted and backwards or something. Maybe my mother being an acrobat has something to do with that particular little wrinkle in my DNA. So i can feel all the little things and can react and correct, adjust instantaneously. I know where her feet are what she’s going to do because of all the signals in her muscles, posture, eye ears…She tells me. Plus more than a touch of hyper vigilance about my surroundings kinda puts me in the same mental state …reactivity wise, as her.
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I’ve heard auditing the L program if you can find one near you is a great investment for this type of thing. It hasn’t been near me in a few years but I’m always watching to see the next time it’s close enough by to audit a bit.
At the very least it should clear up what the judges are looking for.
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There are 2 components here. One is feel which is cross disciplinary. All good riders can feel the nuances. The other component however is discipline specific. You need to learn how horses are expected to move in that discipline.
For instance I suspect that if maresy fell on the forehand for one stride launching into her run to sliding stop in reining, no one would see it or care about it. It likely would not be an issue in hunters where we’d pick up the canter at the start and keep it. It might go unnoticed in a rail class. But it’s visible in a dressage test.
The best way to learn to see how horses go in a discipline is to watch a lot of riders at your level and above, especially with commentary from your coach. This is especially effective in a big barn without no one training program where you and your coach share the arena with all and sundry, and your coach isn’t afraid to mutter things to you about other riders. 
You can also learn to see things way above your pay grade. I can almost always see a refusal or crash coming watching Spruce Meadows Longines Grand Prix on TV because I can feel in my bones what it’s like to have a horse sucked back and on the forehand and having second thoughts. Sometimes they get around the course with heroic measures and I was too pessimistic, but there’s never been a refusal or crash that I didn’t see coming. A skill developed as a teen watching low level jumpers, not even riding it (because my pony sucked back and refused anything higher than her knees, we had no coaching, and crossrails class didn’t exist. Logs on trails or old Christmas tree in a Western saddle were just fine).
This is of no earthly use to me of course.
Anyhow the best way to develop an eye is to watch other riders critically and get some comments from knowledgeable coaches. And to get good video of yourself which will keep you humble if you are able to be just as critical on yourself.
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Auditing the l program is definitly worth it. Make sure its in a super cool region though so its a good vibe.
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I audited the L program (and had a couple of students do test rides for the program) and it was an invaluable experience. Probably the most bang for the buck education wise I’ve ever spent. Can’t recommend it enough.
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I just saw that the L program will be in my area this year/2023. I’m definitely going to commit to at least one session! Very excited.
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I don’t know if they have changed the format since I went through the L program eons ago, but they used to allow auditors only for the first 3? or so sessions. So, try to get in to the early sessions.
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I believe that is still the case. It looks like it’s three sessions but each session is two days? From the registration I believe that is the case but I will make sure to clarify.
Or maybe it’s just the first two sessions? I will double check!
On a different note, is anyone in the group “NoBackNoHorse” on Facebook? It looks like they have a number of in-hand exercises but it’s free to join. I was just curious how it compares to the traveling horse witch. I have not utilized any of it, just followed with interest.
From my recollection, yes, each session is two days.
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I’m in both. They are very different. As is said above Celeste is approaching it from a very basic biomechanics perspective of how to engage the correct neck and shoulder muscles and disengage the wrong ones. It’s VERY fundamental in that it really pushes you to also consider your horses mental state and how it will inhibit most horses from ever truly letting go of the neck muscles that have learned to seize and hold in the vast majority of cases. I think it’s a classic “simple but not easy” approach. I don’t know that I’ll ever get the degree of relaxation she is advocating unless I commit and pay for a 1:1 session, but I have found her approach and my learnings from the group to be very useful in my day to day interactions with my horse.
NoBackNoHorse is pretty standard in terms of approach to back health. It’s a good starting place for folks who are new to thinking about back health and core exercises. Though you see a lot of horses who are just flat and strung out, but I guess if you’re starting with a giraffe with their head high and neck braced, it’s a process 
I’ve found value in it, but no paradigm shifts (yet 
)
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