"Throw- away" foals?

[PeteyPie]

The paper by Joseph M. Stookey, Professor of Animal Behaviour at Western College of Veterinary Medicine (and I apologize for my ignorance about that college. I think the term “obscure” is necessarily subjective) cited above in my previous post, actually is based on a research study done at UC Davis. The study was on male Herefords. One group was hand raised and the other not.

In nearly all our livestock and wild species (horses, dogs and cats may be the exception) bottle raised intact males will show aggression towards humans when they reach sexual maturity.

Most people mistakenly believe that dairy bulls are dangerous because of their genetics. It is true that most dairy bulls are dangerous, but it has more to do with their rearing conditions then their genetics. Most dairy bulls are hand reared in isolation which contributes to their behaviour towards humans when they become adults. Dr. Ed Price, a behaviour researcher from the University of California at Davis, has shown that Hereford bull calves raised in isolation and hand fed by humans became dangerous to people when they reached adulthood, whereas their group raised counterparts where not mean towards people.

citation for the Hereford study:
Price, E.O. and S. J. R. Wallach. 1990. Physical isolation of hand-reared Hereford bulls increases their
aggressiveness toward humans. Appl-Anim-Behav-Sci. 27:263-267

I highlighted the comment about horses dogs and cats because it pertains to this discussion. I have read that too-early weaning in male cats is associated with aggressive behavior. I don’t feel like looking for that study right now, but trust me: because everything you read is true. Or don’t trust me and research it for yourself.

The point of all this is that I believe that hand-rearing male animals can cause problems. I don’t know exactly which part of hand rearing causes the problems but I would not enter into the process lightly, and without educating myself, talking to people who are experienced at it, and finding out about the social, medical, and other special needs of a hand raised and/or bottle raised animal, especially a male animal. An aggressive cat is a pain and a problem. An aggressive horse is a pain, a problem, and a potentially deadly threat.

[Beaver_Breeze]

@Appsolute;7418873

The need arises in the racing industry because thoroughbreds require “live cover” and at times - if the owner wants to breed the mare back during her “foal heat” the TB’s foal must be taken away, as the foal can not travel to the breeding facility with the mare etc.

As LaurieB has stated, that is simply not true.

[WinsomeTK]

PeteyPie: I agree. Seen many bottle-fed kittens that were deprived of other cats contact (kittens or adults) and they were not fun to handle in a veterinary clinic setting. Those same cats could be very affectionate but often were “over-aroused” easily and then behaved aggressively. Not pleasant.

[Lady_Eboshi]

I’ve learned a lot on this very interesting thread, but it begs a question:

Isn’t this “live-cover-only” stipulation in the TB world archaic now? Obviously, it leads to some very undesirable wear and tear on all the brood stock. You have the risk of injury to mare or stallion at covering, the long shipping distances, the expense of mare care, and the issue we’re discussing.

Wouldn’t it be MUCH easier, and accomplish the same intent, to just limit the number of mares any given stallion can cover in a season to an average number most stallions live-cover, but allow A/I? By the same token, limit each dam to one embryo transfer per year, as if she’d actually carried the foal. That way, you keep the bloodlines diverse and healthy, and breeders would actually have a far WIDER array of breedings to choose!

Can anybody in TB’s speak to why this hasn’t happened yet? Not setting off a bomb here; just really want to know given the way it’s done in WB’s.

[RHdobes563]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7418785]
I want to add that I would not bottle raise a male animal. There have been many accounts about problems such as berzerk llama syndrome and similar problems in other male mammals hand-raised by humans. There may be some specific training measures which insure that the animal will turn out well but I don’t know what those practices would be, other than minimizing human contact and getting a companion adult horse for the baby to learn from and pattern.[/QUOTE]

@PeteyPie;7419110

The point of all this is that I believe that hand-rearing male animals can cause problems. I don’t know exactly which part of hand rearing causes the problems but I would not enter into the process lightly, and without educating myself, talking to people who are experienced at it, and finding out about the social, medical, and other special needs of a hand raised and/or bottle raised animal, especially a male animal.

I’m sure my co-worker would agree with you–two of her boys are giving her FITS!

:winkgrin:

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7419179]
I’ve learned a lot on this very interesting thread, but it begs a question:

Isn’t this “live-cover-only” stipulation in the TB world archaic now? Obviously, it leads to some very undesirable wear and tear on all the brood stock. You have the risk of injury to mare or stallion at covering, the long shipping distances, the expense of mare care, and the issue we’re discussing.

Wouldn’t it be MUCH easier, and accomplish the same intent, to just limit the number of mares any given stallion can cover in a season to an average number most stallions live-cover, but allow A/I? By the same token, limit each dam to one embryo transfer per year, as if she’d actually carried the foal. That way, you keep the bloodlines diverse and healthy, and breeders would actually have a far WIDER array of breedings to choose!

Can anybody in TB’s speak to why this hasn’t happened yet? Not setting off a bomb here; just really want to know given the way it’s done in WB’s.[/QUOTE]

I’ve often thought, in an effort to go green, reduce carbon footprint, reduce wear on animals, reduce wear on machinery, reduce farm hand and paid help, that it would be extremely beneficial to do away with the tradition of live cover all together…

On the topic of bottle fed monsters, and as far as the thing about Buck - it doesn’t occur to people that the way they’re handled is the cause of it? Maybe the people with the bottle-fed gremlins aren’t being ~dominant~ enough?

[Roxyllsk]

Rachel Alexandra’s 2013 foal was raised on a nurse mare after Rachel developed complications from foaling a large baby. She had to have surgery and it was touch and go for a little while there. Part of her intestine was damaged and had to be removed.

Anyway that baby is worth a lot of $$, and they also wanted RA to put her energy into healing from a life-threatening problem, and not into nursing a foal.

There was an article published (I think in Bloodhorse) about nurse mares shortly after explaining the process.

Article about RA’s illness :

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/18/sports/rachel-alexandra-2009-preakness-winner-recovers-from-scare.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Blog about the nurse mare :

http://horseracing.bloginky.com/2013/02/16/stonestreet-answers-questions-offers-insight-into-nurse-mares/

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7419221]
I’ve often thought, in an effort to go green, reduce carbon footprint, reduce wear on animals, reduce wear on machinery, reduce farm hand and paid help, that it would be extremely beneficial to do away with the tradition of live cover all together…

On the topic of bottle fed monsters, and as far as the thing about Buck - it doesn’t occur to people that the way they’re handled is the cause of it? Maybe the people with the bottle-fed gremlins aren’t being ~dominant~ enough?[/QUOTE]

Of course that may be the problem. It may also NOT be the problem. It may be a combination of things, including the way they are handled, socialization with others of their own kind, hormones, timing of neutering, or just neutering in general. It would be nice to have scientific studies to show whether it is the bottle or the pail, the presence or absence of humans, timing of those issues, all of that. The Hereford study shows that the presence of humans and isolation vs. absence of humans and being raised among other cattle has a demonstrably different outcome. So if you did a study with two groups raised by humans, one with your ideas of dominance and the other Not Your Ideas of Dominance, maybe you would get interesting outcomes. I suspect you would just get bulls who view humans as dominant individuals worth challenging once those hormones tell them to do so, but you and I are both guessing. We don’t know. At least, I don’t.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Roxyllsk;7419242]
Rachel Alexandra’s 2013 foal was raised on a nurse mare after Rachel developed complications from foaling a large baby. [/QUOTE]

Yup, and I believe every foal out of Toussaud was raised by a nurse mare due to continuous complications with her health.

[WinsomeTK]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7419221]
I’ve often thought, in an effort to go green, reduce carbon footprint, reduce wear on animals, reduce wear on machinery, reduce farm hand and paid help, that it would be extremely beneficial to do away with the tradition of live cover all together…

On the topic of bottle fed monsters, and as far as the thing about Buck - it doesn’t occur to people that the way they’re handled is the cause of it? Maybe the people with the bottle-fed gremlins aren’t being ~dominant~ enough?[/QUOTE]

Dominant? Maybe, but there are so, so many behaviors and intricate species-specific ways of communication that a human, as a different species, will never be able to mimick. It’s more than dominance - you can’t teach a horse, a dog, or a cat to BE a horse, dog or cat when you’re not one.

That’s just my opinion, but I do feel that, in my experience (although not horse related) that the youngsters that are raised by humans AND other members of their species (as in: having consistent access to balanced, “normal” members of their species) end up with a much more normal behavior as adults. But that’s just my opinion, nothing scientific, just years of dealing with small animals.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=WinsomeTK;7419276]
Dominant? Maybe, but there are so, so many behaviors and intricate species-specific ways of communication that a human, as a different species, will never be able to mimick. It’s more than dominance - you can’t teach a horse, a dog, or a cat to BE a horse, dog or cat when you’re not one.

That’s just my opinion, but I do feel that, in my experience (although not horse related) that the youngsters that are raised by humans AND other members of their species (as in: having consistent access to balanced, “normal” members of their species) end up with a much more normal behavior as adults. But that’s just my opinion, nothing scientific, just years of dealing with small animals.[/QUOTE]

The ~dominant~ comment was tongue in cheek in reference to the Buck fandom - you know, those that give him a bad name. I was by no means being serious.

[Laurierace]

Too many people making money off of live cover to allow ai. It would alter the landscape of Kentucky forever.

[WinsomeTK]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7419281]
The ~dominant~ comment was tongue in cheek in reference to the Buck fandom - you know, those that give him a bad name. I was by no means being serious.[/QUOTE]

Aah, thanks! I did not get the subtility here. Am I excused if my first language is French?

[PeteyPie]

I didn’t catch it either. Sorry. No excuse for me, my first language is English.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7418852]
Anecdotally, the pony was weaned at four months or less, and taken into his previous owners home as a “pet”. He lived on the porch and ate out of a feed dish in the kitchen with the dogs, he was their 6 year old DD’s best friend. He was also left ungelded for at least a few years and by the stories they told he eventually became dangerous to the adults in the family, bulling the husband right through the barn door at which point he was gelded.
He is extremely pushy or can be, and behaves differently than our other gelding. I’ve never been herded by a horse until I met him, he doesn’t use the facial expressions at people, in the pasture he wants all his cohort together and he broke from the mares, trotted up alongside me and cut in front of my line of travel as if to haze me back to the group. I broke step and kept going, he circled back and did it again before he gave up. He is also mouthy and nippy, not a pet by any means. Not a horse that you can really relax around.[/QUOTE]

This had nothing to do with the actual process of feeding the foal via bottle, but by every other stupid thing the people did.

Just like the stallion in “Buck”, the raiser(s) did absolutely everything wrong, but feeding the foal from a bottle was not the culprit. It was treating the baby as a person or dog instead of a horse. It was not putting the foal in the company of other horses, so it can learn to be a horse.

Orphan foals of either sex can be and have been raised to be perfectly respectful and normal horses…and it has zero to do with how they got their milk; via bucket or bottle or teat. It has to do with treating the foal the same way it’s dam or another horse would do it…establishing firm boundaries and insisting on physical respect, ie the animal NEVER comes into your personal space without an invite and if you go into it’s personal space and tell it to move, it does.

It’s all about training…not feeding.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7419179]
I’ve learned a lot on this very interesting thread, but it begs a question:

Isn’t this “live-cover-only” stipulation in the TB world archaic now? Obviously, it leads to some very undesirable wear and tear on all the brood stock. You have the risk of injury to mare or stallion at covering, the long shipping distances, the expense of mare care, and the issue we’re discussing.

Wouldn’t it be MUCH easier, and accomplish the same intent, to just limit the number of mares any given stallion can cover in a season to an average number most stallions live-cover, but allow A/I? By the same token, limit each dam to one embryo transfer per year, as if she’d actually carried the foal. That way, you keep the bloodlines diverse and healthy, and breeders would actually have a far WIDER array of breedings to choose!

Can anybody in TB’s speak to why this hasn’t happened yet? Not setting off a bomb here; just really want to know given the way it’s done in WB’s.[/QUOTE]

Some people consider breeding soundness to be important.

It strikes me as a bit strange to consider natural (live cover) breeding as “archaic”.

There are breeds of dog that are now mostly unable to breed without human assistance. I find that situation quite sad…

I hope that the problem won’t be present in TB’s any time soon.

Live cover has risks, it is also natural reproduction. There are
positive aspects to AI and live cover.

Live cover “archaic” ? :no:

[Chall]

I am thankful live cover exists and those breeding farms keep large tracts of land intact. If you want to talk ecological and carbon footprint those farms are providing the balance to land development for subdivisions.

[Anne]

If you allow live cover in the TB there will be no more regional sire market. No stallions in Canada, Maryland, New York, Virginia, California, the midwest, Florida. Everyone will breed to the big names in Kentucky. There is a TON of trickle down effect in the economy both in the regional sire markets and in Lexington: everyone from the van drivers on up. There are many many other reasons why live cover will probably never go away, but these are important ones that may not be readily apparent.

[Toadie_s_mom]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7419179]

Wouldn’t it be MUCH easier, and accomplish the same intent, to just limit the number of mares any given stallion can cover in a season to an average number most stallions live-cover, but allow A/I? By the same token, limit each dam to one embryo transfer per year, as if she’d actually carried the foal. That way, you keep the bloodlines diverse and healthy, and breeders would actually have a far WIDER array of breedings to choose!

Can anybody in TB’s speak to why this hasn’t happened yet? Not setting off a bomb here; just really want to know given the way it’s done in WB’s.[/QUOTE]

I’ll ignite your bomb. I’m not going to say that AI will never be allowed in the TB industry, but what you’re suggesting won’t be. It’s all about the money. If you have a shuttle stallion breeding 120 mares here, then another 120 in the southern hemisphere, those owners would be lickin’ their chops over AI. The fact that they could split that semen and get 500 mares bred. Yee haw!!! The WBs don’t have to worry about any limitation rules in their registries. There’s not a WB stallion in the world breeding that many mares.

[09Bentley]

Bucket baby from nurse mare goes to Olympics

From the very limited amount I know about nurse mares, I have to agree with many of the previous posters that they are not ‘throw away foals’ but often have desirable lines and wonderful dispositions and are treated well.
One in Canada made it to the Olympics in Eventing. http://www.cedarvalleystables.ca/amistad.html

I wouldn’t personally raise a bucket foal as I don’t have enough experience and I think only the right circumstances will make a good partner. I’ve seen two bucket foals - one was a complete idiot, he didn’t let any other person than the ‘mom’ work with him ( dangerous to a point - you wouldn’t turn your back on him). But he was pushy with her and didn’t respect space. He also required indivual turnout because he couldn’t be trusted with others.
He was raised by someone who didn’t have experience…

On the other hand, an Arab breeding farm where I used to ride at had a bucket foal. But she went out with 1 dry broodmare and another mare and foal, the dry broodmare was pretty good to her but she got her food from a human. The foal was well adjusted, had proper socialization with both humans and horses and was a wonderful kids show horse as she got older. You’d never know she was raised from a bucket but she was raised by folks with a lot of experience and a qualified team of other horses that could be trusted to help ‘raise’ a foal!

I think the poster who mentioned professionals who raise these foals is right. It isn’t a job for a someone without experience or at least the support to raise a foal. It’s a lot of work and intense in order to make a good horsey citizen that can be trusted and handled by others.

For the first example, if the owner who raised him had to sell him or get rid of him for any reason…it would be hard to find someone who could take him!