"Throw- away" foals?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=09Bentley;7420081]
But she went out with 1 dry broodmare and another mare and foal, the dry broodmare was pretty good to her but she got her food from a human. The foal was well adjusted, had proper socialization with both humans and horses and was a wonderful kids show horse as she got older. You’d never know she was raised from a bucket …[/QUOTE]

Again, that’s because how/where the foal gets their food has zero to do with how they turn out. It’s ALL in the handling. 100%. There are plenty of horses who are pushy & disrespectful that were never orphaned.

Over on the breeding forum people are always asking “how do I raise an orphan?” While a nurse mare is ok for racing people who have $$, it isn’t really vital. Companionship from some form of equine IS, so the foal “gets” being a horse. There are methods of feeding the foal that don’t even really require a human to be present most of the time, but horses are herd animals & need companionship.

I acquired my foundation WB brood mare for VERY cheap because she had been orphaned at 3 wks. and raised completely wrong. Being an orphan certainly didn’t stunt her growth…when I got her at age 4 she was 17hh…but because her owners NEVER put her with another horse, she was pushy and aggressive with humans. People were terrified of her.

She would approach you and if you didn’t back off, she would rear over your head! Oddly, she was very nice undersaddle, but just prior to my buying her, she kicked through a barn wall & sustained a career ending laceration across her coronet band.

She was 100% Hanoverian, her sire was an imported international GP horse. I got her for $2500. They loaded her in the trailer by putting tiny piles of grain up the ramp and into the trailer.:eek:

This mare wasn’t vicious…she was spoiled rotten. I brought her home and turned her into the pasture w/my herd. Apparently my 14.1h Arab mare (Queen of All) DOES speak “horse” well and immediately went on the offensive.

I’d never seen her do this before, but she cornered the WB mare and started double-barreling her! When the WB mare ran (and she did), the Arab went after her with a vengeance. Several laps around the pasture with the WB running in sheer terror and the fat little Arab right behind, ears whipped back and teeth on the ready. If I hadn’t felt so sorry for the WB, it would have been pretty funny.

Finally the Arab stopped…I guess she felt she’d made her point. For the next 1 yr+ the only horse in the herd the WB could boss was one yearling.

As for the rest of her ground manners (or lack thereof) it wasn’t a hard fix. She was just doing what horses do…especially those with a more dominant temperament…if you aren’t leading, she will. Well, in this case I took over the leadership role…and she didn’t fight that hard over it.

You don’t have to be a professional to raise a foal, orphan or otherwise…but you DO have to have some common sense and do your research to know what ALL horses need. And I would think anyone who has a horse would do this anyway…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Anne;7419995]
If you allow live cover in the TB there will be no more regional sire market. No stallions in Canada, Maryland, New York, Virginia, California, the midwest, Florida. Everyone will breed to the big names in Kentucky. [/QUOTE]

Actually, I don’t think so. If your normal racing circuit is claiming & cheap allowance races, you aren’t going to spend $80,000 breeding to a top stakes winner.

Cost will always limit the choice of stallions. Personally, I think racing (and the entire horse industry) would be better served by trying to breed BETTER horses rather than just MORE.

This would (hopefully) reduce the number of unwanted & unsuccessful horses.

If you have a successful regional stallion who stands for only $5000 and suits your mare, it makes more sense to use him then use a $5000 KY stallion with all the attending costs of AI.

But if you have $50,000 in your pocket and a mare you believe in, why not breed to some top KY stallion when that sort of quality isn’t available in your region? Makes MUCH better breeding sense.

And keep in mind that the Stallion Owner will always have a say in what mares are allowed to breed…in order to produce impressive stats (especially in the first 3-4 years of a stallion’s career), SO’s try to get the best producing mares in their boy’s court. That won’t change.

No, AI is not allowed simply because, as another poster said, the economy of KY is heavily based on the TB breeding, and much of that “business” is all about the manpower etc. needed to manage mares who come in for LC.

It’s all about the $$ pure & simple. AI is being used in every other breed in every other country and has been for decades. If you look at those other breeds, you don’t see any major fall-out in the genetic quality or ability of the animals.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Anne;7419995]
If you allow live cover in the TB there will be no more regional sire market. No stallions in Canada, Maryland, New York, Virginia, California, the midwest, Florida. Everyone will breed to the big names in Kentucky. [/QUOTE]

Actually, I don’t think so. If your normal racing circuit is claiming & cheap allowance races, you aren’t going to spend $80,000 breeding to a top stakes winner.

Cost will always limit the choice of stallions. Personally, I think racing (and the entire horse industry) would be better served by trying to breed BETTER horses rather than just MORE.

This would (hopefully) reduce the number of unwanted & unsuccessful horses.

If you have a successful regional stallion who stands for only $5000 and suits your mare, it makes more sense to use him then use a $5000 KY stallion with all the attending costs of AI.

But if you have $50,000 in your pocket and a mare you believe in, why not breed to some top KY stallion when that sort of quality isn’t available in your region? Makes MUCH better breeding sense.

And keep in mind that the Stallion Owner will always have a say in what mares are allowed to breed…in order to produce impressive stats (especially in the first 3-4 years of a stallion’s career), SO’s try to get the best producing mares in their boy’s court. That won’t change.

No, AI is not allowed simply because, as another poster said, the economy of KY is heavily based on the TB breeding, and much of that “business” is all about the manpower etc. needed to manage mares who come in for LC.

It’s all about the $$ pure & simple. AI is being used in every other breed in every other country and has been for decades. If you look at those other breeds, you don’t see any major fall-out in the genetic quality or ability of the animals.

[halo]

The above post is exactly right. The regional markets are run by their lucrative breeders programs. All they have to do to preserve their stallions is to insure that state bred horses are by stallions standing in the state. Its already partially in place in some states in that there are rules where if you ship out to a KY stallion, you have to breed to a state stallion the following year to preserve state eligibility. The argument that there would be no more regional programs is ridiculous.

[fire_911medic]

These are nurse mare foals and there is a large portion of them. The need for them is great for a few reason.

1. It is NOT just TB industry that requires them. It is any foal that loses it’s dam, dam rejects it, or does not produce adequate milk even with supplementation to the mare with medications to produce milk (had to do this myself with one mare, fortunately she produced milk)

2. The vast majority of these foals are going to be draft crosses. Draft mares tend to be the calmest and most willing to accept a new foal, so they are favored. Typically percherons and belgians are the favored.

3. If the foal doesn’t have a nurse mare there can be a number of issues. Despite being given colostrum infusion (if dam dies at birth) - from a colostrum bank - the foal is not going to develop the appropriate antibodies that it would from the normal mare as milk replacers do not have that in them and also will not be taught horse behavior. It is difficult to raise an orphan foal for any reason. If it were a male I would geld it as soon as possible to prevent those issues from develpoing.

It is unfortunately one of those things that there is a need and there is not enough mares that lose their foals at the right time frame to supply the need. Sadly though many are treated like a byproduct similar to the PMU foals were. People can try to make it a TB industry thing, but it’s not. It’s a breeder issue.

[ReSomething]

Kyzteke, I already worry about limitations of the closed book.

Having more “better bred” horses that also have the same sire such that genetic diversity is affected, well that’s not good at all.

[Kyzteke]

This is apparently where the OP and others are getting their view of things:http://www.lastchancecorral.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=10

From my experience with the TB industry, the TB foals ALWAYS were with the mares during rebreeding…meaning, on the same farm, not right next to them for the actual cover.

Nurse mares were only required if the original birth mare died or became unable to care for her foal.

Hopefully this is still the case. If so, people need to speak out to correct this info…the soft-hearted public will always fall for this type of sob story so that they can be parted from their $$.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7420821]
Kyzteke, I already worry about limitations of the closed book.

Having more “better bred” horses that also have the same sire such that genetic diversity is affected, well that’s not good at all.[/QUOTE]

Actually this has not been an issue in most breeds. Linebreeding and even inbreeding has been used with great success in most breeds, including the TB.

Besides, TB is still going to be a “closed book” regardless of where the stallion stands…they are all TBs, right?

The idea for breeding TBs is for them to run fast…if you look at their bloodlines (because the book closed 100’s of years ago), most are heavily linebred as it is.

Again, it’s not WHERE the stallion stands that makes genetic diversity, it’s his bloodlines.

[obxjesse]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7418866]
Oh, he sounds lovely…

But, where are the published studies indicating personality deficit/disorders from orphan/throw-away/bottle fed foals?

I’ve met a couple bottle-fed citizens and they were very friendly, alert and respectful. Not a means I would go to, but as a last resort, it is the only resort…[/QUOTE]

On this whole conversation that you are having about raising male horses leading to problems especially behavioral problems I believe it has more to do with how to the foal is raised.

When I was 12 I was given a QH Colt that was the first foal of the mare that had learnt to ride on. When the foal was only a couple days old the mare developed some problems and became very sickly and we had to feed him by hand. Being only 12 at the time and not having anyone telling me otherwise I treated him like a dog. Even bringing him into the bunk house a couple of times. We all got a good laugh out of it, but he would develop some very aggressive tendencies later in life. Nothing as severe as the horse on “Buck,” but if I hadn’t taken immediate action to correct them I could see where he could have become just like that horse.

I also bottle fed twins that lost their mother during birth. The male turned out fine as I learnt from my earlier mistakes, but the female that was mainly someone else’s responsibility became very aggressive by the time she 3. I remember going to see her when she was 5 and if you stepped foot anywhere in her field she would charge you. She had almost killed the owner a couple of weeks later and she was put down a couple months after that after hurting a child. The gelding turned out fine and spent most of his career showing hunters and is now a lesson horse.

[CHT]

Our neighbour breeds high end thoroughbreds (not on their farm here, they board in KY) and I know some of the farms they have had their mares bred at would not allow a mare with foal at side to be bred. The mare had to come alone. I think the theory was it kept things easier/safer for the stud farm. For this reason our neighbour typically only bred their open mares to those stallions, but I imagine nurse mares would also be employed to allow mares who just foaled to be bred.

[halo]

Typically foals are not allowed in breeding sheds. Ive been breeding for 30 years and have never taken a foal to the breeding shed. They stay back at the farm where the mare is boarded in a stall until the mare returns.

[Dressage_Fancy]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7418884]
I think all of my information is anecdotal, but compelling enough that I would not personally take the chance. There is a citation below from a vet at some obscure university, but I don’t know of any double-blind university studies done on this subject. It would be nice to find one. In the meantime, I really think people taking on a bottle-fed male baby should at least read what is out there, talk to experienced breeders, and really educate themselves about the subject. An aggressive adult horse is nothing to take lightly, and the opinions and anecdotes are cautionary to say the least. Here are a few sites I found quickly. I will edit this with more if I find them:

http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/Bottle-raised%20males%20can%20be%20very%20dangerous.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserk_llama_syndrome
http://www.iz.org/llamas/berserk_male_syndrome_article.html

Another anecdotal example was the bottle-raised stallion in the 2011 documentary, “Buck” about Buck Brannaman. A client brought a problem horse to one of Buck’s clinics. She had hand-raised the stallion and he had injured her. I don’t remember all the details. My impression was that the woman was a hoarder because she had a bunch of intact horses in her herd. I do remember the caught-on-film moment where the stallion savages one of Brannaman’s assistant trainers. It was very frightening. Again, there may be techniques to prevent this behavior in a hand-raised animal. The point is, I don’t know those techniques and I think many other people don’t either, so I would be very careful to learn more before taking on such a project. It could be as simple as gelding at the right age, I don’t know.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have said “mammal.” Another example was in the turkey movie where the guy hand-raised the turkeys. One of the toms suddenly attacked him viciously in a way that no wild tom turkey would ever do. The explanation was that the turkey viewed him as another male to fight off. Of course, this is not scientific in the sense that it is a double-blind experiment with a repeatable outcome, but my opinion was that the turkey saw the guy as a rival.[/QUOTE]

I have raised 2 colts and 3 fillies by hand (on a bottle) over the past 30 odd years. All of them turned into nice, well mannered, usefull horses. The key is to raise them as you would any other foal. You handle and train them just as any other weanling. You socialize them with other horses as soon as possible—That means finding an adult horse who will babysit and teach horse “manners” to the foal just as a foals mother would normally do. I used a great babysitter gelding for this job.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7420289]
Actually, I don’t think so. If your normal racing circuit is claiming & cheap allowance races, you aren’t going to spend $80,000 breeding to a top stakes winner.

Cost will always limit the choice of stallions. Personally, I think racing (and the entire horse industry) would be better served by trying to breed BETTER horses rather than just MORE.

This would (hopefully) reduce the number of unwanted & unsuccessful horses.

If you have a successful regional stallion who stands for only $5000 and suits your mare, it makes more sense to use him then use a $5000 KY stallion with all the attending costs of AI.

But if you have $50,000 in your pocket and a mare you believe in, why not breed to some top KY stallion when that sort of quality isn’t available in your region? Makes MUCH better breeding sense.

And keep in mind that the Stallion Owner will always have a say in what mares are allowed to breed…in order to produce impressive stats (especially in the first 3-4 years of a stallion’s career), SO’s try to get the best producing mares in their boy’s court. That won’t change.

.[/QUOTE]

I bends the cost curve. A $50k stallion is at that price because he can get a full book at that rate. If he could cover 10x the mares using AI, his fee would drop. Breeders who are trying to sell yearlings by that stallion would see profit drop as the market would be flooded. If a hot stallion like Storm Cat or Northern Dancer (in their day) or a War Front could cover 600 mares a year the fee would be such that anyone could get a vial and eventually 1/2 the foal crop would be by 7 stallions. Not good.

[Laurierace]

My foals always accompanied the mares to the farm where the stallion was located but was either left in the van with a handler or in a stall. They were only separated for a matter of minutes.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Linny;7421101]
I bends the cost curve. A $50k stallion is at that price because he can get a full book at that rate. If he could cover 10x the mares using AI, his fee would drop. Breeders who are trying to sell yearlings by that stallion would see profit drop as the market would be flooded. If a hot stallion like Storm Cat or Northern Dancer (in their day) or a War Front could cover 600 mares a year the fee would be such that anyone could get a vial and eventually 1/2 the foal crop would be by 7 stallions. Not good.[/QUOTE]

Again, the stallion owner controls how many mares his stallion breeds. Doesn’t matter if it’s AI or LC, that is still the case and always will be.

Plenty of stallions in plenty of breeds reserve most of their boy’s breedings to either their own stock OR mares “invited” in. Then what ever is left is offered to the general public.

Again, this will never change.

And for those who breed WBs, you will see that the cost of buying frozen from a stallion or simply breeding to him does not drop his stud fee. Totilas is still some 5-7,000 Euros no matter what. Sandro Hit is $2000 for one dose of frozen…and those that want to take the chance. It has not dropped his stud fee.

A horse is $50,000 because he is producing a high % of successful performers and or high-priced auction babies. As long as he produces that many, his stud fee will not drop.

In fact, if the % actually goes UP (because he’s produced more foals) his stud fee could actually rise.

[Kryswyn]

When Last Chance Ranch posted their video of their 5 new nurse mare foals, I visited their website where I saw the blatantly incorrect information about TB foals being pulled from their dams just so the dams could be rebred.

I posted a comment under the video to that effect and concluded with the statement that it always bothers me when a charity uses misinformation to tug at the heart strings of potential donors, because it makes me wonder what else they may be fudging the facts on. Of course if they actually believe what they say is correct then that’s a problem of a different kind, which again would be a red flag not to donate.

[Laurierace]

It may not be incorrect. If for example a mare foaled a PA bred and they wanted to rebreed her to a KY stallion, they might not send the foal.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7421581]
It may not be incorrect. If for example a mare foaled a PA bred and they wanted to rebreed her to a KY stallion, they might not send the foal.[/QUOTE]

Around here (in Kentucky) it’s called seasonal boarding and exists for exactly that reason–so that mares and foals from other states can ship in (either pre-foaling or just after) to be bred to KY stallions.

Leasing a nurse mare isn’t cheap. Between the price of the lease and the associated expenses, the costs easily run to $5,000 or more. Plus, of course, the foal doesn’t get raised by its own dam–which most breeders consider to be highly preferable.

As I stated above, nobody uses a nurse mare just for convenience.

[Lynnwood]

I’ve seen a local to the state rescue posting several times about the nurse mare foals they are saving from “certain death”. I have a hard time giving them any support or validation when they twist or intentionally use emotional propaganda to gain supporters. I’d be happy to throw a few $$ their way if it was simply took in a load of a nurse mare foals.

Of course the foals plight is blamed entirely on the TB industry and aimed at those at the top.

Then again if you look closer its normally not those at the crest of the industry creating the issue. Its the trickle downs who thought they could make a quick buck and are running a shady nurse mare business or frankly any other operation.

This is their description under their nurse mare foal program. No matter how good their intentions its hard for me to get behind them or offer support when they are more manipulative then honest about the foals fate and purpose.

"A nurse mare foal is born so that its mother will come into milk. The milk that the nurse mare is producing is used to nourish the foal of another mare, a more “expensive” foal. Primarily, these are Thoroughbred foals, though certainly not limited to the Thoroughbred industry. The Jockey Club requires that mares be bred only by live cover, and not artificially inseminated; therefore, the mare must travel to the stallion for breeding. The Thoroughbred mare is bred as soon as she gives birth, and the nurse mare takes over feeding the Thoroughbred foal. The nurse mare foal is then left to die either by starvation, vicious beating, or gunshot."

[LaurieB]

@Lynnwood;7421780

I’ve seen a local to the state rescue posting several times about the nurse mare foals they are saving from “certain death”. I have a hard time giving them any support or validation when they twist or intentionally use emotional propaganda to gain supporters. I’d be happy to throw a few $$ their way if it was simply took in a load of a nurse mare foals.

Of course the foals plight is blamed entirely on the TB industry and aimed at those at the top.

Then again if you look closer its normally not those at the crest of the industry creating the issue. Its the trickle downs who thought they could make a quick buck and are running a shady nurse mare business or frankly any other operation.

This is their description under their nurse mare foal program. No matter how good their intentions its hard for me to get behind them or offer support when they are more manipulative then honest about the foals fate and purpose.

"A nurse mare foal is born so that its mother will come into milk. The milk that the nurse mare is producing is used to nourish the foal of another mare, a more “expensive” foal. Primarily, these are Thoroughbred foals, though certainly not limited to the Thoroughbred industry. The Jockey Club requires that mares be bred only by live cover, and not artificially inseminated; therefore, the mare must travel to the stallion for breeding. The Thoroughbred mare is bred as soon as she gives birth, and the nurse mare takes over feeding the Thoroughbred foal. The nurse mare foal is then left to die either by starvation, vicious beating, or gunshot."

Among the other inaccuracies being propogated by that rescue is the sentence I highlighted above. TB mares are no different than mares of any other breed. Biology works the same for all of them.

Mares can be bred on their foal heat, which means that they will be bred 10-14 days post-foaling, but it’s much more common for TB mares to be bred on their first “real” heat cycle which occurs at about 30 days.

Many Kentucky farms don’t allow foal heat breeding, since the chances of the mare conceiving then are much lower than on the second heat cycle. Stallion books are full, stallion handlers are busy, and they would rather concentrate their efforts at a time when they are more likely to bear fruit.

In NO case are mares bred as soon as they give birth. There wouldn’t be any point since they’re not ovulating then.