Thrush!!! It's back... again! Help please, looking at diet and possibly adding supplements.

[TakingItAllInStride]

Okay, I’m starting another hoof thread for my old man, Strider… this time specifically for thrush help.
There are tons of threads on best topical thrush remedies, but my real interest here is in cause and prevention through diet and a healthier horse overall. My understanding is that a horse should not need nonstop topical remedies to control thrush.

Winter is fast approaching (I’m in west central VA) and I really want to do my best to get thrush out of the picture before winter mud and moisture make it a bigger problem. I’ve been battling it off and on since February. I’ve done Clean Trax, Pete’s goo (triple antibiotic ointment/athlete’s foot cream), and Well Horse Thrush Off. Thrush Off worked great with daily use and then every other day use, and the thrush did clear up… but after I stopped using it it came back. I’m considering trying Tomorrow, but I don’t really feel like topicals are the thing, I mean they can obviously treat thrush in the moment, but if the thrush is constantly coming back there must be something else going on that is predisposing my guy to it, right? I must be missing something?!

I know hoof form and proper movement is important to improving frog health and function and that’s already being addressed as best it can with ongoing thrush.

So now I’m looking at his diet… I’ve heard a lot on copper and zinc being helpful if they’re lacking, but I don’t know for sure how I can figure that out. Teeth aren’t the best and so my guy is eating soaked Standlee pellets and cubes and I’ll be adding a chopped forage for winter, so I can’t really test it as it’s always changing. Can I just give a supplement and see how it goes? I’m tired of wasting money on topicals that have to be used non-stop and don’t want to dump a ton into a supplement that’s just a guess, but I don’t know really how to proceed.

My guy’s details again, for anyone who doesn’t want to try to piece things together from my previous threads, and to add some more info on his diet.

Health:
He’s a 30ish year old quarter horse gelding. He has some mild joint arthritis. He’s not IR, doesn’t have Cushings. Last year was a year of health troubles starting last year with anaplasmosis, anhydrosis, very poor appetite and several mild colics, but currently his only issue is an ongoing liver issue, of unknown origin… basically his liver enzymes are elevated most of the time and we have yet to figure out why. Maybe with liver problems his hooves are as good as they’re going to get since his health is compromised, I don’t know for sure… but I’d still like to take his diet and possible changes into consideration.

Diet and supplements:
sparse pasture of mixed grasses and some clover
11 lbs daily of Standlee timothy hay pellets and alfalfa/timothy hay cubes (about 4 lbs alfalfa/7lbs of timothy)

Magrestore magnesium
Nutra-flax
HighPoint Grass Hay daily vitamin/minerals
GutWerks
SweatWerks
Nutromino
Myocrin
MSM
milk thistle
SMZs (for his liver)

Environment:
24/7 turnout in a large pasture with hills, and including dirt areas and gravel.

Exercise: Despite the large area he’s not much on moving and really just moseys around grazing. Hoof boots will be here sometime next week and the plan is to get him moving more to help with hoof health.

Hooves:
He previously (Feb 2017) had longish upright contracted heels with no real frog contact and long toes with stretched white line and separation. Hoof form has been/is being addressed and heels have been brought back, frogs now contact the ground and heels have widened. He is pigeon toed. He currently has a white line trim with hoof wall trimmed short and rolled at sole level to keep the wall separation from worsening. The goal is that digital cushion and frog strength improve to allow for normal wall length without separation, but with thrush on top of weak digital cushion/frogs, he continues to often land toe-first. Hoof boots should help him move more comfortably and encourage heel-first landings, but how much so if he has thrush?

Alright… I’m ready to hear your thoughts! And ask away if there’s anything I left out. Thank you!!!

[Scribbler]

IME the horses with contracted heels are the one with persistent serious thrush that you can smell in the barn aisle. So keep fixing that.

[csaper58]

1. You need to address the conditions the horse’s feet are standing in. Just like a person with a foot injury should not stand barefoot in mud, poop and pee neither should a horse with white line or thrush. This horse needs clean dry ground to stand on.

2. This horse needs his feet cleaned at least once each day and treated with bleach (1cup bleach to 1 gallon water) a spray bottle works great.

3. copper: maximum tolerable level of 250 mg/kg of ration… your supplement provides 125mg/3oz plus 40mg/30gr in your sweatwerks
   zinc: maximum tolerable level of 500mg/kg of ration…your supplement provides 360mg/3oz plus 120mg/30gm in sweatwerks

How much of these are you feeding? Are you measuring carefully?

In the ratio of copper to zinc, copper should be higher, your supplements + feed have that reversed. It looks like your ratios are way out of whack and many of these minerals compete with each other for absorption.

I would not add any more zinc or copper to this horse’s diet he is close to maxed out on both already if you add up just his sweatwerk and mineral supplements.

Some copper should be stored in the liver of a healthy horse, does your horse have a liver issue? Why are you feeding the Milk Thistle?

OP I think you are feeding a lesser quality feed, and too many supplements when it is best to give one very good quality feed plus roughage and free choice salt/mineral.

[Horseman15]

I agree with @csaper58. I switched my 2 over to Tribute and it’s made a world of difference in them both.

Another thing is to really look at where your horse is standing/spending his time. Considering it’s been a really we year overall here in the Mid Atlantic region I’m not surprised. My farrier and I had this conversation a couple weeks ago. There’s a lot of horses with most related issues.

I coat my horses’ hooves with Keratex Hoof Hardener. My gelding is prone to getting thrush but hasn’t had it in a year now. I haven’t been putting it on as religiously as I should lately and I still don’t have any issues.

[Zipononsence]

I have had good success in the past with Tomorrow. Also, one time my vet gave me some liquid children’s antibiotic (don’t remember which antibiotic) to paint on frog. Another time my farrier recommended this https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/pfizer-animal-health-liquamycin-la-200-250-ml?cm_vc=-10005 from tractor supply to apply to cotton balls and stuff into sulcus and back of hoof bulb area. They fall out, but stay in long enough to do some good. Good luck

[walkinthewalk]

My horses live in ideal conditions — 20+ acres of rolling pasture, come in every night to clean stall/fresh shavings on top of grid mats. They never stand in mud because this land has excellent natural drainage.

One horse is insulin resistant, the other has environmental allergies and a Less-Than Grade 1 Club hoof.

They are on a no-grain/no-soy diet. They get Timothy pellets to mix their supplements with.

i fought thrush for quite a few years with the allergy/club hoof horse no matter what I did. He gets trimmed every 4-5 weeks and I was cleaning his hooves every darn day. Then I found a new farrier/trimmer and whaddaya know, the thrush disappeared. I now only check this horse’s hooves once a week. It is just amazing how his club hoof now self-cleans, doesn’t have thrush, and finally has a frog that looks fairly respectable given what it used to look like.

i said all that to say “find a new and better farrier” . In spite of how good you think your current farrier is, they aren’t good enough. If you are doing your own trimming, I am sorry but you’re not trimming good enough to keep the thrush at bay:)

[ChocoMare]

Please, no bleach. It kills good tissue.

As a trimmer who sees lotsa thrush: 1 Part Simple Green Pro 3 (anti-bacterial, fungal, virucidal) to 20 parts water. Soak for 15 to 30 minutes twice a week. On non-soak days, pick and brush the hoof dry. Spray the snot out of every crack and crevice with Athlete’s Foot Spray.

The Simple Green kills the bad stuff without harming good tissue. I use it to clean my whole house! So there you’re taking care of bacteria.

The athlete’s foot spray is the anti-fungal part.

Once you get on top of it, maybe soak once a week for 10 minutes. Dry it well, spray it out.

[luvmyhackney]

Keep his feet dry, use cotton balls with Lysol or Tomorrow crammed into the crevices. I don’t like to soak feet that are already standing in mud or wetness all day. I spray all the nail homes with Lysol and coat with hoof putty to keep stuff out of them.

You feed an insane amount of supplements. Couldn’t you go to a complete senior feed for a more balanced diet with the necessary vitamins/minerals?

Have you thought about a long-term arthritis option that would help him move more comfortably? If his heels are crushed and run forward, that probably why you are having thrush.

[ladymcts]

I had similar problems with my medical mystery horse for whom I still have more questions than answers. For now we’re doing really well with no thrush after moving to a less poop-ridden facility, and also doing front shoes in order to fix the shape of the hoof. He’s doing really well with all of those changes, but I can sympathize with your frustrations and agree that topicals are not the only solution.

You might want to consider a subscription to http://feedxl.com/. It allows you to plug in everything your horse is currently getting, including foods and supplements, in order to figure out where there may be deficiencies. As you noted, you’ll have to make some guesses about the quality of forage and it may change a little from time to time based on availability thru winter. But do the best you can, and it may point out things to you like getting plenty of copper but not magnesium, etc.

I have no stake in the company, just found it to be useful for our situation.

Only other comment would be about hoof supplements which tend to focus on biotin, methionine, and manganese. I am a big fan of Vitaflex’s Master’s Hoof Blend. I’ve done spreadsheet comparisons of several products on the market, and Vitaflex offers the most bang for your buck, in that it may be more expensive than some, but you get more “stuff” in it on a dollar per dollar comparison (based on those three ingredients I mentioned). Why I’m a fan is that it makes hooves grow. I don’t know that it makes them harder or healthier or rounder or anything like that, but if they grow faster, than it gives me the opportunity to reshape the hooves on a faster schedule than without. Don’t know if you want to consider a hoof supplement, but couldn’t resist throwing this info at you.

Best of luck to you both!

[Angela_Freda]

I know nothing about hooves… but he’s on SMZs chronically? Would he benefit, including helping to at least diminish the thrush, from a pro/prebiotic to counter the issues ABs can have ?
Nevermind, I just googled Gutwerks… I assumed it was for ulcers…

[TakingItAllInStride]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to share your thoughts, you’ve given me more to think on. :yes:

@Scribbler I completely agree that contracted heels contribute to thrush. His heels have been gradually taken back as far as possible and have decontracted some. Now he needs to move properly (flat, at least and heel-first), but with thrushy frogs he’s not a big fan of that.

@csaper58 and @Horseman15 I mentioned mud and moisture because it’s fact of winter. He’s not standing barefoot in mud, and pasture and shelter are kept free of manure, but he will be encountering mud and wet grass more in the winter than he does through the summer. Lucky for me and his hooves, he’s a very neat and tidy sort of horse and keeps his toilet spots away from standing spots.

@csaper58 IMHO bleach is much too caustic for daily use, there are far better options out there. Again, Thrush Off works wonders, but it’s the fact that thrush keeps recurring that has me coming here with questions.

Both Sweatwerks and High Point are fed in the recommended amounts and I was told they were fine given together, but it never hurts to check again. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, he has liver issues, see my OP.

I wasn’t aware that Standlee prouducts (or Horse Tech’s supplements) are of lesser quality, what makes you say that? Aside from fiber length in the pelletes and cubes, I don’t see any real difference from hay. Here there aren’t many choices on complete feeds, Triple Crown is the best here, but my guy does not do well on it at all. My vet and dentist are both good with the choice of Standlee. And Strider, who can be a very hard keeper, couldn’t be happier with it.

@Zipononsence Yep, that’s the mode of application I’ll be using, if I go with Tomorrow. Thanks!

@walkinthewalk My guy doesn’t do well with confinement, but he always has access to dry ground. His trim was wrong and I have no doubt that was a big factor. His hooves are still being corrected, but now it’s improper movement that’s inhibiting full recovery. I’m so glad to hear your horse recovered and no longer has recurring thrush. Very encouraging!

@ChocoMare No worries! Strider’s hooves are a no bleach zone. :yes: Never heard of Simple Green Pro, but I’ll take a look. And all that soaking doesn’t make the hooves softer and more prone to thrush? But again, this sounds like a thing that must be continued… for how long once you’re on top of things? Don’t get me wrong, it’s not at all that I don’t want daily maintenance, horses are all about daily maintenance and any excuse to spend more time with guy is never wasted time. I guess I’m really looking to an end on the thrush battle… too much, too soon to ask for maybe?

@luvmyhackney Haha! I knew the insane amount of supplements comment was coming sooner or later. :winkgrin: I’ve tried TC Senior with him last year and he did very poorly… it got to the point of weight loss and even reactation as though it was painful to his gut and refusal to eat. Things turned around with Standlee and the sups. I am not against cutting things, but as much as he’s been through the fear of upsetting the balance still hangs over me.

After anhydrosis last year and the enormous discomfort the constant over heating caused him (even with frequent baths and shade, VA heat and humidity is nothing to laugh at with anhidrosis), I’d give anything to avoid that again! He has kept cool and sweat beautifully so far this year. With anhydrosis cause and treatment largely unknown and varying greatly horses to horse, I’m reluctant to fool with what works. Maybe that sounds silly, I don’t know… the horrors of anhidrosis are not something I’d wish on anyone! This is a conversation my vet and I have frequently and come the cool of winter I may try cutting some.

Arthritis is very mild, only minor stiffness when he goes from standing to moving and moving after laying down. His heels were upright and too long, but no longer. But thrush is still hanging on!

@ladymcts it’s so nice to not feel alone with a medical mystery horse, thank you so much!! Good idea for feedxl and Vitaflex’s Master’s Hoof blend, I will take a look. Best of luck to your guy as well!

@Angela Freda Yes, SMZs will continue for now. I probably should have put an explanation on each sup, but didn’t want to make it overly long. Thanks for your thoughts!

[JB]

You’ve done Clean Trax - how many times?

Deep-seated thrush often needs deep penetrating treatment several times, 2-3-4 depending on just how bad it is. If you only did 1 CT, I would consider doing at least another one, or doing a few White Lightning treatments, or get a gallon jug of oxine (available at Walmart and similar) to soak with a couple times a week, for a couple weeks if necessary.

I would also use the Tomorrow ointment, really get the tube as deep into the cracks as you can and fill them with cotton after squirting the ointment into them.

I don’t know that this is a dietary issue. I think it’s just the combination of thrush having taken a very strong hold while the feet were so bad, and you’re just going to have to continue treating the thrush while the feet are being improved. It’s not “fix one so the other will get better” situation, it’s a “work on them at the same time” deal.

[IPEsq]

I think HorseTech could mix you up a custom mix that would likely save you a bit of money and reduce redundancies (zinc x2, magnesium x2, etc.) versus buying their stock products separately.

[TakingItAllInStride]

@JB

You’ve done Clean Trax - how many times?

Deep-seated thrush often needs deep penetrating treatment several times, 2-3-4 depending on just how bad it is. If you only did 1 CT, I would consider doing at least another one, or doing a few White Lightning treatments, or get a gallon jug of oxine (available at Walmart and similar) to soak with a couple times a week, for a couple weeks if necessary.

I would also use the Tomorrow ointment, really get the tube as deep into the cracks as you can and fill them with cotton after squirting the ointment into them.

I don’t know that this is a dietary issue. I think it’s just the combination of thrush having taken a very strong hold while the feet were so bad, and you’re just going to have to continue treating the thrush while the feet are being improved. It’s not “fix one so the other will get better” situation, it’s a “work on them at the same time” deal.

So… I’ve likely been dealing with the same thrush infection all along… well, that sure makes me feel stupid! But also confused. If all the times I thought it was gone and it wasn’t, how will I know that it is truly gone?

Yes, one time using Clean Trax. I might as well admit that I’ve never dealt with thrush this bad and also that I didn’t think I had one of those horses with thrush THAT bad. :eek:

I’m totally cool with working on things at the same time, I’ve just been utterly frustrated with dealing with this for so long and every time I thought it was gone… well you know. That’s why I’ve started looking at the bigger picture with his diet.

[JB]

I don’t know that you’ve been dealing with the exact same infection all this time, but based on the descriptions of recurring (or endless, I think we don’t know which?) thrush plus his very contracted heels which are still a work in progress, that it doesn’t really matter Even if you have cleared up the infection, the hoof form sounds like it’s just allowed things to come back.

It’s also possible you’ve never really gotten it 100% cleared up, just enough so that he felt good/great/fine, so you stopped treating, and the nature of the bacteria allowed it to thrive again.

Generic oxine will be your cheapest treatment - there are threads here on how to use it by mixing with vinegar, etc.

I suppose if it were me, I’d do the oxine (or White Lightning, or Clean Trax, whatever you prefer) then daily Tomorrow ointment with cotton packing for a week, then another treatment, then daily Tomorrow until you can’t stuff any cotton in any crevice, and see how that all goes. It may not work out to be that plan, maybe you decide just 1 treatment, or maybe 2 WL/oxine treatments a week for 1-2 weeks, or something, but it’s a place to start.

[TakingItAllInStride]

Yep. He would look good for a while, I’d taper off or stop treatment… and a couple weeks or so later the gunk would appear along the sides of the frog and in a few more days the sulcus would be looking bad too. I’d treat again… it’s been a vicious cycle.

Tomorrow was my next try and is on its way. I’ve heard SO many good things about it.

I’ve been reading about the different things mentioned here. Using Clean Trax before, I was very impressed with how well it worked and how quickly it helped, so really like the simplicity (and the price!) of using oxine. Especially how it doesn’t need a plastic bag for vapors! As good as my guy tried to be, all that standing still wasn’t his idea of fun.

I hadn’t thought of doing two treatments at once with both Tomorrow and oxine. Great idea! Thank you!

[stb]

I don’t want to sidetrack your thread but will offer my recent experience with my anhidrotic horse. I read an article by a vet that has a theory that anhidrosis is often caused by reaction to grains and grain products in food - even very small amounts. Now, when I read it I thought it didn’t apply to me because I was feeding what I thought was a no grain diet. However, my ration balancer had wheat middlings in it and my SmartDigest Ultra supplement (for chronic diarrhea) had corn distillers grains as well. Anyway, this vet advised taking the diet back to hay, water, and salt only for 2 weeks. I did that (I gave a handful of alfalfa pellets for "meals’) and my horse started sweating on day 3. He has been sweating normally ever since. Also, his chronic diarrhea, which had lasted almost a year, is gone and his manure is now normal.

This is a long winded way of saying you may want to go back to absolute basics to see where you are and then start over. You are feeding quite a lot of different supplements. Sometimes it’s not about adding though, it’s about taking away. If you see no results you haven’t lost a thing.

Also, I agree with the above suggestion about checking your trim. If your diet and environment are good then that leaves trim as the culprit. I hope you get this figured out.

[btswass]

If you don’t have luck with Tomorrow I’d try this to start to clear up the current thrush
https://www.argentoeq.com/collections/hoof-care/products/frogmedic
then I would use this a couple times a week for prevention
https://www.argentoeq.com/collections/hoof-care/products/leovet-frogade

[QuiteFrankly]

my horse had very contracted heels when I got him, and this definitely sounds like one, ongoing case of thrush in the central sulcus. Treat it even after you thing it’s gone, and assuming you have a good farrier, go by his word as to when you can stop treating. I haven’t used clean trax before, but I’ve had really good luck with white lightning and tomorrow, so all I really have to say is good luck!

[danacat]

I keep a jar of Magic Cushion hoof packing on hand (for various reasons) – and the last time my trimmer was here she noticed it, and said in passing, “That stuff is great for treating thrush, really kills it.” News to me.

You might want to give it a try.