Bluely pretty much summed up my thoughts on both tie downs and what is seen in most speed events, esp horses that are only ridden in gymkana.
The Op seems to have a solid insight, and thus wish her luck with her horse.
Another thing to look at, esp on a horse that tosses his head to the side, after teeth, bits , etc have been looked at, is to see whether the browband is right against the ears
The gaping mouth though, suggest the habit has stemed more out of using a tie down and zero bit relief.
Without actually watching the horse ride, we are all just guessing.
OP, glad you are trying a hack and having a trainer to help, that is awesome. You are on the right track.
I just wanted to add - some horses will toss their heads to evade the bit because they have never learned how to comfortably accept and ride in one. I have a mare right now who wasn’t ever “schooled” in the bridle; they trail rode her and that was it. So when I take contact, she is just confused. After some correct riding with a dressage instructor, she is becoming MUCH more comfortable with the contact, the head tossing is now almost non-existent, and she understands what I’m asking when I ask it.
Is it possible your mare just was never taught what a bit was really all about?
[QUOTE=StarPattern;7930825]
I’ve purchased a little S hackamore to try, but since I also don’t really know how to use this piece of equipment, I’ve asked a trainer to help me. I need a set of eyes on the ground and I think it’ll be very beneficial to my horse and I to have someone that can tell me when we’re miscommunicating. Perhaps it’s not a bit issue at all… perhaps it’s a rider issue. Hopefully, the trainer can help us figure that out and maybe the hackamore will be the finishing touch. Overall, my horse is really good. She has her quirks like all horses, I just don’t want to ignore any underlying issues that could be causing the head tossing and gaping.[/QUOTE]
I’ve had good luck with Myler comfort snaffle bit (loose ring or D ring) for stock horses with small mouths. Also, focusing on keeping my hands very very quiet.
It’s entirely possible she really has no idea what a bit is all about. I’ve spent the last year experimenting with her and have found, in addition to thinner mouth pieces, she’s happiest if I have little to no contact on the reins. If she had her way, I’d drop the reins completely and use my seat and legs to control her direction and speed. I feel like she is a very sensitive, well trained horse… but maybe her previous riders just didn’t ride with much contact. I’m an english rider turned western, and while my hands are quiet… I do prefer the reins shorter. Maybe I have to meet her halfway and learn to ride with longer reins and create a new comfort level for myself.
I don’t believe it’s a browband issue, since she wears a two-earred headstall without a browband. It’s adjusted properly and I’ve had a handful of people confirm that for me. But I’ll ask the trainer to look at that as well, just to confirm.
Her teeth were recently done and aside from a couple sharp points, the dentist was actually surprised to hear she was a 1993 model - her teeth look much younger, apparently. The vet wanted to put her at 12-15, until I pulled out her papers for proof. I even had the dentist check her tongue to ensure it didn’t have old scar tissues, splits or damage. According to the vet, dentist and chiropractor, this mare is in exceptional shape for being the age she is and having as many foals as she did. To my knowledge, she had at least 7 foals in her life, maybe 8 or 9, and she has very little belly stretching or dropping like old broodies tend to get. She doesn’t have a swayback and is quite lovely shape for an older girl. This picture (link below) was taken about 2 weeks after weaning her last foal and she had a bit of a hay belly on her from living loose in a giant pasture with other broodmares. She hadn’t been ridden in a few years at this point.
[QUOTE=StarPattern;7931725]
I do prefer the reins shorter. Maybe I have to meet her halfway and learn to ride with longer reins and create a new comfort level for myself. [/QUOTE]
Yes, I am sure she does not understand why you are hanging on her mouth. She looks like a dream. Why don’t you try letting go of her mouth and riding her?
I would also try loosening her cheek strap. It looks tight in the picture, making it difficult for her to give her head correctly
That is also a curb you have in her mouth, so definitely you should not be riding with constant contact, esp to the degree you might be used to
Being an experienced English rider, I’m sure you are very tuned to riding back to front, more legs then hands. Western follows the same principle, except when the horse is moving correctly, you give them a chance to stay so on their own, esp far as rein contact
Hard to tell from that picture, but it almost appears like there is a wrinkle at the corner of her mouth-something you do not want, if that is so, esp with a curb
True that the thicker the mouth piece-the milder, but just up to a point.
The average stock horse does not have a mouth size to accommodate a bit diameter for a Warmblood
If you are riding with contact, using that bit, I can see the reason she objects!
I would also try loosening her cheek strap. It looks tight in the picture, making it difficult for her to give her head correctly
That is also a curb you have in her mouth, so definitely you should not be riding with constant contact, esp to the degree you might be used to
Being an experienced English rider, I’m sure you are very tuned to riding back to front, more legs then hands. Western follows the same principle, except when the horse is moving correctly, you give them a chance to stay so on their own, esp far as rein contact
[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7931777]
Yes, I am sure she does not understand why you are hanging on her mouth. She looks like a dream. Why don’t you try letting go of her mouth and riding her?[/QUOTE]
That’s kind of what I’ve been doing for the last little while, trying to figure out what level of contact she likes while still maintaining some feel for her mouth. At one point, I was on her bareback and we were puttering around the round pen, and that’s how I figured she preferred absolutely no contact. I briefly considered riding her with just a neck rope… but then we run into a new problem, which is the whoa function. She likes to move forward and while she will slow down if I sit back and ask for a whoa, the full stop happens when she feels like it. If I pick up the reins and very gently pull back (pretty much just tightening my fingers on the reins while sitting back), I have an almost immediate stop. But then the head tossing and gaping starts.
She’s a bit of a puzzle, this mare. Writing this thread out is helpful, because it helps me lay out exactly what I need to work on. Her whoa definitely needs some fine tuning, I have to experiment with rein contact and maybe the hackamore will be the magic little ‘click’ we need. Her turning also needs some work, but I think that will come when I figure out her bit and contact preferences. Right now, I’m simply asking her to turn by shifting my weight and then reinforcing the cue with my boot heel (no spurs). 99% of the time, I get a solid turn, but sometimes… she’ll just ignore my cue until I ask more persistently. She also neck reins and gets very confused by direct reining, which was another fun lesson I learned not long after I got her. She was so adamant about ignoring my rein cues that she almost walked straight into the side of a building because I didn’t ask for the turn in the way SHE preferred. She’s a very clever horse and once I figure her out, she’s going to be fantastic.
Your mare is lovely! I am very jealous.
If you get to ride with a trainer, ask to take some lessons on another horse and learn how to ride “western”, in the arena way that is meant, not just with a western saddle, in case that is how she was trained.
On a real western trained horse schoolmaster, it is much easier to learn, where you can focus on yourself, not figuring/retraining your horse.
Mostly, you need to have someone tell you what if any western riding she responds to and then it would be much easier to go from that.
Should not take a trainer a few minutes riding her to answer that for you.
Don’t try to ride in contact with a shanked bit. it generally won’t work. Maybe try taking her back to a ring snaffle and see if she objects.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7931806]
I would also try loosening her cheek strap. It looks tight in the picture, making it difficult for her to give her head correctly
That is also a curb you have in her mouth, so definitely you should not be riding with constant contact, esp to the degree you might be used to
Being an experienced English rider, I’m sure you are very tuned to riding back to front, more legs then hands. Western follows the same principle, except when the horse is moving correctly, you give them a chance to stay so on their own, esp far as rein contact
Hard to tell from that picture, but it almost appears like there is a wrinkle at the corner of her mouth-something you do not want, if that is so, esp with a curb
True that the thicker the mouth piece-the milder, but just up to a point.
The average stock horse does not have a mouth size to accommodate a bit diameter for a Warmblood
If you are riding with contact, using that bit, I can see the reason she objects![/QUOTE]
The bit in her mouth in that picture is called an Argentine Dogbone “Snaffle”. With this bit, I basically ride her with a lot of slack in the reins. If I was riding english, it would almost be considered ‘on the buckle’. I wish I had some photos of me actually riding her so I could show the level of contact I usually take with her.
I think at that exact moment, she was shifting the bit around because she doesn’t normally have a wrinkle at the corner of her mouth. If I use that bit again, I’ll double check the sizing to be sure though. 
I won’t pretend to be an experienced rider. I’ve ridden for years and years and I know the theory behind a lot of things, but I’ve regressed to a confident beginner/nervous intermediate rider due to a bad accident where I nearly broke my back. Now, I’m trying to relearn how to keep my heels down and keep my legs and hips relaxed. If I use my stirrups, I keep them shorter than normal because it’s more comfortable for me. As I spend more time in the saddle, my body is gradually unlocking. I spend a lot of time without stirrups though, just to help my hips really loosen up and develop balance again. Luckily, my mare is an absolute saint while I figure myself out. That’s why I’m convinced a large chunk of her quirks are due to me which is why I’m trying so hard to fix everything and try things to make her more comfortable.
yes, that bit terminology that is used western, by tack catalogs can be confusing!
I just googled Argentine Dogbone snaffle, in case I did not see your bit clearly enough
Regardless of whether it is incorrectly called a snaffle, because it has a jointed mouth piece, it has shanks, thus leverage, and therefore is a curb
This incorrect terminology, shanked snaffle, is very irritating to me, because unless the person shows or is very experienced western, they dont realize that such a bit is a curb, and functions like one, only using that term, as it is easier than saying, curb with aj ointed mouth piece,
Western horse should be neither confused by direct reining, or contact, as afterall, that is how they are trained in the beginning, but with a true snaffle or a bosal or other direct rein devise . It is over time and correct training, the horse learns to respond to the indirect rein and learns to keep frame and rate speed on a loose rein. When that point is reached, the horse is ready to be ridden in a curb, and ridden off of seat legs and the indirect rein (neck rein)
If you wish to direct rein her, or ride her with some contact, I would advise you to use a true snaffle (no shanks-reins attach level with where the bit exits corner of mouth
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Remember when “neck reining”, you have a figurative little 2" box in front of you that you move your reins in, a bit this way, a bit that way, ONLY that little bit, inside of that imaginary 2" box in front of you.
Neck reining is extremely subtle, it is not hauling around on the reins with both in one hand and expecting the horse to understand what we want, when we are trying to go left and pulling left, but the right rein, now shorter, is pulling on the bit on the right side.
THAT consideration is why riding with a curb and one handed is for finished horses.
Those horses, as explained in the post above, were trained with a snaffle and direct rein first, until they learned to listed mostly to our other aids of seat and leg.
If your mare was well trained, try, no matter what bit you have on her, with drapey reins, barely lift the hand and move your hand a couple of inches to one side, guiding, looking where you want to go, barely use your outside leg to guide the horse to move away from it and see what happens.
Then, also consider that she may just not be really trained at all, you will find where you are with her soon, once you have a trainer on board.
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[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7931211]
Forcing a horse’s head in a certain position does NOT mean that horse is using himself in a correct manner (has a head set). You painted a perfect picture of why most of us hate the use of tiedowns. How can you claim he learned anything when in order to ride him you have to use the western tie down when riding english? What you are doing is putting the tiedown on as a substitute to good hands and good training. When you cannot ride without it it is no longer a training aid but a fix for a lack of training.[/QUOTE]
It’s kept loose. And I don’t ride in it all the time, mostly when I’m trying to focus on my own eq, and don’t want to worry about him acting like a giraffe because I’m not drilling him in headset (when I say head set, I just mean not up in the air).
I believe the tie down can be an artificial aid, similar to the use of spurs. In using a tie down, the horse learns that that is where his head should be, or that’s what my horse has seemed to learn from using it.
People also bash draw reins, but I found after using them for a few rides, figuring out what gets him to “give”, then transferring over to the regular reins and using those cues taught him what I wanted him to do with less fighting.
Of course, all horses are different. Some learn with different methods.
That is the method that worked for us, whether you think it’s wrong or not, he’s doing what I ask, and that is all I want him to do.
To OP: Definitely talk to your trainer, or a trainer you like/have access to! They will probably be able to give you the best incite and help for your issue! Maybe ask one or two others as well for opinions? But still, trainers tend to know more. Most of us commentors only know what works for our horses. A trainer should hopefully know more as they’ve dealt with many horses.
[QUOTE=StarPattern;7931854]
The bit in her mouth in that picture is called an Argentine Dogbone “Snaffle”. [/QUOTE]
Catalogs also have a “wormer” section … as if we put worms into our horses!
There are lots and lots of “errors” (we’ll call them) in catalogs, and bits is one particular section. I’ve seen several catalogs call the Tom Thumb a great light snaffle bit to ride a green horse with, and of course that couldn’t be farther from the truth (not to mention it’s a terribly designed bit).
The curb bit you are using is a nice mild curb bit. But it is a curb. It has shanks. It has leverage. Looks to be this bit?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31iURp8-fPL.SY300.jpg
The mouthpiece does not dictate whether a bit is a curb or snaffle. The leverage does.
However, even though this is a nice mild curb bit, I would probably do more work with her in a true snaffle bit, as it sounds like she has other issues (stopping, turning, etc) that need work anyway. When you need to work on basics, its often easier to do so in a snaffle. (Since it sounds like you want to re-train your mare.)
When you get the issues fixed that you want, I bet when you go back to this bit, it will work out a lot better. And maybe you’ll have more of your confidence back then too. 
the horse is missing basics. Riding the horse in a curb, slapping on a tie down or draw reins does nothing positive
There are times using draw reins, short term, to fix a specific problem might be of use, very short term, going back to riding without them asp.
Draw reins will put a horse on his front end like nothing else.
Correct head carriage falls into place, with the Horse first learning true collection and correct movement, ridden with as much legs as needed, riding back to front, with the bit just acting like a barrier, that keeps the energy generated from behind, just falling out the front
If instead, you force a head carriage, using things like draw reins, you can have a horse learn to drop behind the vertical, or have an artificial head set, yet be strung out and on the forehand
Correct movement always always come first, before ever worrying about ahead set, and if the horse is soft in his entire body and tot he bit, the head set takes car of itself, just maybe needing a slight refinement
I agree, put the horse back in a true snaffle and work on getting the horse soft in her entire body.
You need to stop focusing on the head, and instead use legs to get that horse supple and responsive
Draw reins in this situation are a terrible idea.
OP, indeed playing with riding off contact is a good idea. For most western trained horses, picking up even the slightest contact is a signal to ‘go do something.’ I was hunting in Wyoming with some British folks some years back and they were mounted on ranch horses, and miserable because they were trying to ride on contact as they were accustomed to doing, and the horses were jigging. They were very skeptical when I said ‘drop those reins’ but lo and behold, every horse just relaxed and walked along instantly. They managed to remember to stay off contact all day and those cowponies gave them terrific rides at all speeds.
Must be the post I missed.
I did not suggest that draw reins be used on this horse, Bev, I was responding to others that stated there might be a time for draw reins, and telling how they used them. Maybe you also should read ALL of the posts!
I am not an advocate of draw reins, but have an open enough mind to allow how and when they might be used short term-nothing to do with the op’s horse or situation
I have a pair, which I don’t even know where they are, having not used them over 15 years.
However, I did attend a western pleasure clinic, where a trainer demonstrated on one horse,where using those draw reins short term (one or two rides ) would help with a specific problem
As you know, a lope of from the standstill in western pleasure, requires for that horse to step up from behind, raise shoulders, not head and neck and lope off
This horse by no means loped off with head in air, resistant, etc-he was well broke-just did not completely keep that topline in the lope departure
A few lope departures with the draw reins, and that horse was performing 10 lope offs after those draw reins were removed
I would never advocate using draw reins to fix basic training problems, nor did I ever use them starting young horses, or training in general.
I believe in hands with feel and riding with legs, knowing when to drive with legs and when to release with hands.
I don’t suggest any horse be ridden with draw reins to rate speed, or with tie downs or running martingales to force head position. The more you hang on the mouth of a horse, the more tense they will become.
I have ridden with horses that jig and prance on a trail ride, with riders handing onto their mouths and the horses just becoming more up tight. I teach my horses to go at the speed I want, on a loose rein, both away from home and towards it, and would not dream of using draw reins or tie downs.
Hubby bought a western horse, who was not used to contact. I know she was not ridden in an English Saddle because she was not used to my legs on her side, she was most probably ridden in a stock saddle. On the lunge she went around with her head parallel to the sky.
I am experienced in lunging. So I lunged her. Gently training her and swapping her over. She now is rounding up and is starting to look like one day she might actually track up. She is now able to have a leg on her side and she can be lunged with her stirrups down.
We are still in the early stages of being ridden, but now I am being a bit more serious about it.
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