Tie downs...?

[StarPattern]

To make this short and sweet, I have a very sweet and lovely 20 year old AQHA mare. She is decently broke, after being a ranch/trail horse for the first 12 years of her life. She’s spent the last handful of years as a broodmare and hasn’t been asked for much. She’s a tad spooky and can have an attitude, but she’s not mean tempered. She hasn’t pulled any nasty tricks with me.

However, she is a confirmed head tosser when she has a bit in her mouth. I’ve had her teeth done and a chiropractor out. She was very stiff through her neck and withers, and we’ve since worked through that. Her teeth had a couple sharp points, but nothing extensive. I’ve had a saddle fitter out and her saddle fits her quite well with a good quality wool pad. I’ve tried a fair many bits with her, from straight snaffles, to multi-jointed snaffles, to bits with shanks and a port. To date, her favorite bit was a Jr. Cow Horse with a twisted mouth, but she still tossed her head and tried to gape her mouth.

Someone suggested a tie down. I’ll admit, I don’t know anything about them and have never used them. Google tells me they’re used to keep a horse from tossing it’s head or cracking a rider in the face. Is that their sole purpose? Is it just a band aid solution for a problem that could be fixed through more intensive training?

My next step is a mild hackamore because I honestly feel her mouth is just small. She’s proven happiest in thinner mouth pieces and maybe a hackamore will help… but is it worth my time to investigate a tie down?

Thanks!

[Bluey]

Where do you ride her and doing what?

Tie downs, we are talking of some kind of fixed standing martingale here, right? are dangerous outside.
They generally are used in the arena to keep a horse’s head from getting way to high when the rider is having to be less than polite with it’s request with the reins and the horse will resist by throwing it’s head up.

Many ropers will use one in the arena and as soon as thru take it off the noseband and attach it to the breast collar.

The reason tie downs are dangerous in themselves is that, if a horse stumbles, they also restrict how the horse can use it’s head and neck to help it regain it’s feet.
You don’t want that in an arena, but it is a trade-off many accept in one, but too dangerous outside, where horses are more apt to stumble.

You have tried re-training her mouth, if the only reason she has for her head tossing is a bad habit from some rider in the past with rough hands, or if she never had anyone really train her to develop an educated mouth, but she was just ridden with the old jerk and spur method?

If there is other bothering her than bad training, a hackamore won’t help the head tossing.
If it is bad training, taking the time to re-train may make morse sense.

You could try a hackamore and see what happens.

Now, which kind of hackamore were you thinking and what will you be doing with the mare?

[2enduraceriders]

<<<<Is it just a band aid solution for a problem that could be fixed through more intensive training?>>>
YES!

[cloudy18]

Yes, it’s a band aid. I believe they are supposed to be used in barrel racing to give the horse something to brace against. ?? Try a hack first. There are so many kinds to try, so do a search. People seem to like S hacks, English hacks, and then there are all sorts of bitless bridle options.

[Foxglove]

Going out on a limb here --but while I’m 100% in agreement with what SHOULD be done, the mare is 20. If you ride her with a tie down and enjoy her, then ride her with a tie down and enjoy her. If you like the work of training, then work with her on the head issue, but if you don’t --then put a tie down on and enjoy your horse. When I first got WD-4D he had a problem with star gazing and clopped me in the head a couple of times. As we were in the middle of hunt season, I didn’t have time to work with him and try 1000 things until something worked. I put a “bungee” tie down on him. He’s a smart horse. In seconds he’d figured out how to keep the pressure off --but when he forgot, it wasn’t a harsh lesson --just a stretchy bungee that encouraged him to put his nose back down. After hunt season, in the summer, we had time to work on the nose issue. I think it was a learned response to his previous rider (dressage rider) who insisted on him “being in a frame” every footfall. With my shoulder replacement, I could not have him on the bit. He had to learn to go on a draped rein (even hunting) and rate himself on leg pressure. He learned (so did I), and at some point he stopped flipping his head up. He’s a peach now, never touches the bit and hasn’t “star gazed” in years. But if he were 20 and I’d just gotten him, I would put the bungee on him and ride him. Waiting until he was retrained would have been six months of not riding --and I don’t have a second horse that hunts. Oh, if you need a bungee tie down, I still have his in the tack room, just in case. But you might consider a running martingale as an alternative.

Foxglove

[KIloBright]

I know horses that have drowned, trail ridden with tie downs
Tie downs have purpose in games and roping, but not in general riding
I guess on a twenty year old horse, you will need to decide on using a quick fix, and decide where you ride

[cloudy18]

Oh, and the running martingale is worth a try too, but also be aware that it can be dangerous when crossing deeper water. And use rein stops, and snaffle bit only.

[Beverley]

I agree with Foxglove. Give the tie down a try, it could be what she is used to from the past. Over time, play with her first with and then without and see if you can get her to realize that a low head and soft jaw won’t hurt her. I have worked with a few over the years that needed to really be shown that the ingrained pain avoidance/self defense was no longer needed.

[sdlbredfan]

Why not try a Bitless Bridle?

[beau159]

Tie-Downs have a very strong purpose for roping. It gives the horse something to brace/balance against the force of the rope on the calf/cow.

I’ve never had a barrel horse that needed a tie down for barrel racing, but they do work for some horses and they do have their place when used correctly.

With that said, there was one horse that I rode in a tie down all the time, soley for MY protection. He was a good horse and I rode in it quite loose with him, but I rode in it to prevent me from getting a bloody nose. He had a naturally high headset and I didn’t want to get cracked in the face if we were running after a cow and I leaned too far forward.

Sure, you can spend a ton of time re-training your 20 year old horse if you want. It’s your horse. However, if you simply want to be able to go out and ride and enjoy your horse, I personally see nothing wrong with trying a tie-down and see how it work.

I would also try a hackamore too and see how your horse likes that.

I have a friend who’s particular horse will tolerate riding in a bit, but she’s just not happy with it. She’s MUCH happier with a hackamore so that’s what she rides her with.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=beau159;7928480]
Tie-Downs have a very strong purpose for roping. It gives the horse something to brace/balance against the force of the rope on the calf/cow.

I’ve never had a barrel horse that needed a tie down for barrel racing, but they do work for some horses and they do have their place when used correctly.

With that said, there was one horse that I rode in a tie down all the time, soley for MY protection. He was a good horse and I rode in it quite loose with him, but I rode in it to prevent me from getting a bloody nose. He had a naturally high headset and I didn’t want to get cracked in the face if we were running after a cow and I leaned too far forward.

Sure, you can spend a ton of time re-training your 20 year old horse if you want. It’s your horse. However, if you simply want to be able to go out and ride and enjoy your horse, I personally see nothing wrong with trying a tie-down and see how it work.

I would also try a hackamore too and see how your horse likes that.

I have a friend who’s particular horse will tolerate riding in a bit, but she’s just not happy with it. She’s MUCH happier with a hackamore so that’s what she rides her with.[/QUOTE]

Not really, roping you don’t use a tie down outside or in an arena in ranch competition, only in rodeo competitions for time and not everyone does there.

Here is some roping in an arena and without tiedowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyo0Tk2CYE

I wonder if the OP needs a few second opinions on the spot, see if someone else can help her decide where to go from here.

At least she had enough different ideas to give a try to whatever she may not have tried yet.

[beau159]

@Bluey;7928540

Not really, roping you don’t use a tie down outside or in an arena in ranch competition, only in rodeo competitions for time and not everyone does there.

Apparently I need to clarify.

Tie-Downs have a very strong purpose for roping. It gives the horse something to brace/balance against the force of the rope on the calf/cow when roping at SPEED.

http://doublenickel.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/tysondurfeyclinic.jpg

The link you provided doesn’t have anything with speed.

[StarPattern]

For the most part, my mare is ridden lightly in an open field. No water crossing and very little in the way of hills or tripping hazards. She’s semi retired, but I hop on her occasionally for the sake of exploring.

I’d like to avoid a tie down at all costs, if I can. Her head tossing doesn’t really bother me much, since she generally shakes it to the side and not up and into my face. I’m sure she’ll catch me one day, but so far… she hasn’t tried to break my nose. I’m not a fan of band aid solutions at all, but I also want my horse to be comfortable. Luckily, you all just confirmed my suspicions that my mare doesn’t really need a tie down. The information about them was very helpful though!

I’ve purchased a little S hackamore to try, but since I also don’t really know how to use this piece of equipment, I’ve asked a trainer to help me. I need a set of eyes on the ground and I think it’ll be very beneficial to my horse and I to have someone that can tell me when we’re miscommunicating. Perhaps it’s not a bit issue at all… perhaps it’s a rider issue. Hopefully, the trainer can help us figure that out and maybe the hackamore will be the finishing touch. Overall, my horse is really good. She has her quirks like all horses, I just don’t want to ignore any underlying issues that could be causing the head tossing and gaping.

Thanks!

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=StarPattern;7930825]
… but since I also don’t really know how to use this piece of equipment, I’ve asked a trainer to help me. I need a set of eyes on the ground and I think it’ll be very beneficial to my horse and I to have someone that can tell me when we’re miscommunicating. Perhaps it’s not a bit issue at all… perhaps it’s a rider issue. Hopefully, the trainer can help us figure that out and maybe the hackamore will be the finishing touch. Overall, my horse is really good. She has her quirks like all horses, I just don’t want to ignore any underlying issues that could be causing the head tossing and gaping.

Thanks![/QUOTE]
Wow, I am very impressed! I am sure you two will do fine with the hack and a little help.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=beau159;7929870]
Apparently I need to clarify.

Tie-Downs have a very strong purpose for roping. It gives the horse something to brace/balance against the force of the rope on the calf/cow when roping at SPEED.

http://doublenickel.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/tysondurfeyclinic.jpg

The link you provided doesn’t have anything with speed. [/QUOTE]

You must not have seen them rope in the arena and win without anything on a horse’s head?

I had, sold him to my neighbor, that still has him, one such heading horse, that you can ride without a bridle and no tie down, that won a bigger regional roping in OK some years ago bridle-less.

Here is one video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vodleO2u-Ak

Not saying that some may not brace on it, but it is not a necessity.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=StarPattern;7930825]
For the most part, my mare is ridden lightly in an open field. No water crossing and very little in the way of hills or tripping hazards. She’s semi retired, but I hop on her occasionally for the sake of exploring.

I’d like to avoid a tie down at all costs, if I can. Her head tossing doesn’t really bother me much, since she generally shakes it to the side and not up and into my face. I’m sure she’ll catch me one day, but so far… she hasn’t tried to break my nose. I’m not a fan of band aid solutions at all, but I also want my horse to be comfortable. Luckily, you all just confirmed my suspicions that my mare doesn’t really need a tie down. The information about them was very helpful though!

I’ve purchased a little S hackamore to try, but since I also don’t really know how to use this piece of equipment, I’ve asked a trainer to help me. I need a set of eyes on the ground and I think it’ll be very beneficial to my horse and I to have someone that can tell me when we’re miscommunicating. Perhaps it’s not a bit issue at all… perhaps it’s a rider issue. Hopefully, the trainer can help us figure that out and maybe the hackamore will be the finishing touch. Overall, my horse is really good. She has her quirks like all horses, I just don’t want to ignore any underlying issues that could be causing the head tossing and gaping.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

That is good, we really can’t say from here, without seeing your horse, if it is a head shaking because of allergies, saddle pinching, objecting to the bit, bad tooth, bad habit, or …

A trainer on the spot is a great idea.

[Orion]

I lot of people see tie downs as a band aid, but I found using a tie down actually taught my horse to keep a desired head set after a several uses. I’m assuming he just got used to leaving his head in the position. Even on occasion when I ride English we pop the noseband off the English bridle and replace it with my Western noseband so I can put a tie down on him.

Headset has always been an issue with my horse, so I found the tie down was really helpful, and I do all my gymkhana events with him in one.

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=Orion;7931144]
I lot of people see tie downs as a band aid, but I found using a tie down actually taught my horse to keep a desired head set after a several uses. I’m assuming he just got used to leaving his head in the position. Even on occasion when I ride English we pop the noseband off the English bridle and replace it with my Western noseband so I can put a tie down on him.

Headset has always been an issue with my horse, so I found the tie down was really helpful, and I do all my gymkhana events with him in one.[/QUOTE]
Forcing a horse’s head in a certain position does NOT mean that horse is using himself in a correct manner (has a head set). You painted a perfect picture of why most of us hate the use of tiedowns. How can you claim he learned anything when in order to ride him you have to use the western tie down when riding english? What you are doing is putting the tiedown on as a substitute to good hands and good training. When you cannot ride without it it is no longer a training aid but a fix for a lack of training.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7931211]
Forcing a horse’s head in a certain position does NOT mean that horse is using himself in a correct manner (has a head set). You painted a perfect picture of why most of us hate the use of tiedowns. How can you claim he learned anything when in order to ride him you have to use the western tie down when riding english? What you are doing is putting the tiedown on as a substitute to good hands and good training. When you cannot ride without it it is no longer a training aid but a fix for a lack of training.[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, to do playdays is a different type of riding and training all it’s own, that can be improved by standard correct training, but is not necessary for so much gamin riders do.

For speed events, many just ride with the old spur and jerk method, so there a tie down is necessary, to compensate for the less than polite rein requests that in that kind of riding happens at times.

In that kind of riding, “head set” tends to mean just that, a head that is not all over the place, not like in traditional riding, where correct riding brings the horse’s head to a certain place, that place depending on the task at hand.
“Head set” is then meant a result of proper training and riding, as how the horse’s energy comes to hand, showing in the neck and head balance, not where/how the head sits in itself.

Kind of hard to watch speed events.
Painful, really, how speed event riders handle their horses, for those that use finer techniques of communication.
I would not consider speed riding “wrong”, more like “different”.
In their own ways, they are somewhat technical also.
Just try to ride one of their horses to find out what that kind of seat of the pants riding and wilder performance that requires of the rider and horse.
It is not so easy.

That kind of training and riding is not my thing, but you know, cross pollinating is coming to them too, if very slowly.
Some day most riding will use close to the same base techniques for standard riding, once more and more realize how nice it is to ride a horse truly that finely tuned.

Until then, don’t alienate, educate is a better way to go about expressing our opinions.
Let’s try to do that.

[stb]

Three months ago I bought a horse that had been ridden in a tie down at every ride. He is an ex goat roper, and in the last several years he had just been trail ridden. The trail riding owner (mother of the original, rodeoing owner) was a very timid rider, and this horse has some major go. She rode him in a very tight tie down with a long shank Western bit and a pretty major death grip. Honestly, the horse trotted slower than he walked, because he had been held back so tightly.

I got rid of the tie down immediately and changed his bit to a Myler short shank with tongue relief. At first I got a good bit of head tossing, gaping mouth, and yanking on the reins with any attempt to slow him down. However, he’s figured out now that the yanking doesn’t get him anywhere and that there is no reason to gape his mouth and toss his head because I’m not hurting him. Also, I had his teeth floated, which made him much more comfortable.

This is basically a long winded way of saying that I also think that tie downs are a band-aid, and that retraining is the way to go with a high headed head tosser. This isn’t the first horse I’ve ridden that had bit issues, but with kind and steady hands that head tossing thing will usually go away with a little bit of time.