Timidly posting about a dull horse

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=sascha;8347047]
Amping it up gradually is nagging.

Allowing that reasonable aid to go ignored is encouraging the horse to not come to work today. “I think I’ll phone it in today, George.”

Do you want to be THAT kid in the grocery store who whines at mommy several times in increasingly annoying tones about wanting a particular brand of cereal?

Or, do you want to be the person who leads the dance with the most pleasant, eager to please, happy horse ever?

I don’t mind what you want to be, but your horse does :)[/QUOTE]

I see what you are saying, but perhaps I see some shades of grey. Or perhaps its more situational dependent. If I ask my horse for a walk-to-trot transition and he doesn’t trot, I would absolutely go to the stick/whip. That is a pretty clear disobedience. If he trots forward, however, and I’m just not happy with the level of forwardness, in most instances I’d use a stronger leg aid before applying the whip.

That said, this thread is good food for thought and I may need escalate sooner at times. I think I often give him a bit of the benefit of the doubt as I’m concerned that I wasn’t clear! I certainly agree that you want to avoid nagging, just not 100% sure that going to the whip right away is the only way to avoid nagging. I would probably feel differently if I often had to use the whip, though.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Backstage;8347112]
I see what you are saying, but perhaps I see some shades of grey. Or perhaps its more situational dependent. If I ask my horse for a walk-to-trot transition and he doesn’t trot, I would absolutely go to the stick/whip. That is a pretty clear disobedience. If he trots forward, however, and I’m just not happy with the level of forwardness, in most instances I’d use a stronger leg aid before applying the whip.

That said, this thread is good food for thought and I may need escalate sooner at times. I certainly agree that you want to avoid nagging, just not 100% sure that going to the whip right away is the only way to avoid nagging.[/QUOTE]

So in the transition, do you get the gait you want at the quality you want, then repeat the transition looking for a more correct response? Re-schooling the transition is important to getting the transitions as you want, not just correcting after.

[greysfordays]

Wow, thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses.

Sasha, thank you for the point of not using the whip alone. That’s absolutely missing my puzzle and I see now how important it is. Also, I think most of the time I do repeat the ask, but definitely not 100%. I see now how important it is to go right back to the exercise and make sure I was clear.

And not to be overly defensive Daisyesq, but I really don’t think I’m afraid of his going forward. If he’s cantering, he’s already going faster than he wants to, his bucks are rarely big or jarring at the canter. It’s the explosive-at-the-walk-spook-bucks that are unnerving. Once we’re trotting or cantering, everything is cool and the gang.

One more question if you’ll indulge me. Am I right in thinking that the priority or hierarchy of the training is number one go forward, always?

If he for example moves forward but maybe shortens his step or lowers his head (we are working so hard on keeping his pole the highest part), do I reward the go forward and THEN ask for the better carriage or longer steps? One thing my trainer keeps reminding me is that this horse is large and still developing. He says we have to ride the horse we have not the horse we want and that it will take time for him to develop the strength and self carriage we want.

How do you guys balance the understanding that it’s a young horse and what we are asking is probably uncomfortable in their bodies with continuously encouraging a horse to evolve? I’m struggling to find the balance asking too much vs too little. Going forward feels like a basic thing any horse should respect but the rest is more nuanced to me.

[Daisyesq]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8347183]
…If he for example moves forward but maybe shortens his step or lowers his head (we are working so hard on keeping his pole the highest part), do I reward the go forward and THEN ask for the better carriage or longer steps? One thing my trainer keeps reminding me is that this horse is large and still developing. He says we have to ride the horse we have not the horse we want and that it will take time for him to develop the strength and self carriage we want.

How do you guys balance the understanding that it’s a young horse and what we are asking is probably uncomfortable in their bodies with continuously encouraging a horse to evolve? I’m struggling to find the balance asking too much vs too little. Going forward feels like a basic thing any horse should respect but the rest is more nuanced to me.[/QUOTE]

First, you asked about a dull horse. So the priority first is to train his reaction to your leg. So yes, that’s “forward” first priority, but after you get a reaction you can re-fine the reaction! That will come later…

And regarding your (lack of) fear, its probably not any different than any of us. Most of us are a little fearful. This sport involves some bravery, so we do the best we can!

[Wonders12]

Not a dressage rider (amateur h/j rider) but my horse sounds exactly like yours. Except one of her tricks to evading the aids is to act like she is spooking and then blow up sideways.

We’ve recently made huge progress by doing what Sascha outlined. However, I also had to admit that I was afraid of being dumped, so not reacting as I should. I knew I should be smacking her earlier and I know that when smack=buck I need to respond with another smack until we go forward. But I don’t.

So my trainer used her in lessons with some brave upper level riders for a week. They rode out her naughtiness and had the discussions that I was too timid to have.

During that time, I rode a school horse that is similar to mine without the attitude. It helped my confidence in reinforcing the forward, but I also realized that I fuss with the reins/restrict the forward too much. When forward happens, I need to reward by relaxing my elbows.

And finally, for now, if I’m sitting on her, I’m RIDING. No leisurely rides, no sloppy hacks, no chit chatting with other riders, etc. We go to work. 15 minutes of perfect practice is better than an hour of ok work. And if one day I’m not feeling like I can get on and ride every single step, I don’t ride that day. It’s better for her to get a day off and need a lunge before our next ride than to get a bad ride. This won’t be forever, but it’s necessary right now.

So she needed to be re-calibrated by someone else. I needed to be re-calibrated on another horse. And we need to do our homework. It’s been hard, but we’ve made more progress in the last couple weeks on this program than we had since April.

[Countrywood]

Imo, there is also a different between responsive to the leg, forward, and over reactive which we don’t want either.

Her horse is a hunter, correct, so she may not want that quick off the hind leg super energy in the gait reaction a dressage rider might find ideal in a horse…Charlotte is an Olympic competitor and is after a certain kind of uber response so one would do well to adjust that to their own riding and horses temperament as well.

[netg]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8347183]
Wow, thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses.

Sasha, thank you for the point of not using the whip alone. That’s absolutely missing my puzzle and I see now how important it is. Also, I think most of the time I do repeat the ask, but definitely not 100%. I see now how important it is to go right back to the exercise and make sure I was clear.

And not to be overly defensive Daisyesq, but I really don’t think I’m afraid of his going forward. If he’s cantering, he’s already going faster than he wants to, his bucks are rarely big or jarring at the canter. It’s the explosive-at-the-walk-spook-bucks that are unnerving. Once we’re trotting or cantering, everything is cool and the gang.

One more question if you’ll indulge me. Am I right in thinking that the priority or hierarchy of the training is number one go forward, always?

If he for example moves forward but maybe shortens his step or lowers his head (we are working so hard on keeping his pole the highest part), do I reward the go forward and THEN ask for the better carriage or longer steps? One thing my trainer keeps reminding me is that this horse is large and still developing. He says we have to ride the horse we have not the horse we want and that it will take time for him to develop the strength and self carriage we want.

How do you guys balance the understanding that it’s a young horse and what we are asking is probably uncomfortable in their bodies with continuously encouraging a horse to evolve? I’m struggling to find the balance asking too much vs too little. Going forward feels like a basic thing any horse should respect but the rest is more nuanced to me.[/QUOTE]

You nailed it with the bolded.

Basic obedience (and I believe your horse understands the aid, but has learned to not respond properly, as opposed to a young horse who doesn’t yet understand) is first, before you can start the rest of your training. Once you have it, you can work on the rest; and the rest becomes easier.

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8347206]Imo, there is also a different between responsive to the leg, forward, and over reactive which we don’t want either.

Her horse is a hunter, correct, so she may not want that quick off the hind leg super energy in the gait reaction a dressage rider might find ideal in a horse…Charlotte is an Olympic competitor and is after a certain kind of uber response so one would do well to adjust that to their own riding and horses temperament as well.[/QUOTE]

This is a very valid point to remember. My trainer corrected me for making my mare overreactive to the leg. She was too jumpy off the leg, which I honestly like that kind of sensitivity, but it was too much so I couldn’t use supportive leg to help encourage her hind legs or ask for lateral work, so I had to intentionally hold my legs on and “dull her up” a bit. So there can be too much, and for jumping where you want legs firmly on over fences, for example, the horse has to allow this.

[belgianWBLuver]

[QUOTE=Wonders12;8347204]

…

So my trainer used her in lessons with some brave upper level riders for a week. They rode out her naughtiness and had the discussions that I was too timid to have.

During that time, I rode a school horse that is similar to mine without the attitude. It helped my confidence in reinforcing the forward, but I also realized that I fuss with the reins/restrict the forward too much. When forward happens, I need to reward by relaxing my elbows.

And finally, for now, if I’m sitting on her, I’m RIDING. No leisurely rides, no sloppy hacks, no chit chatting with other riders, etc. We go to work. 15 minutes of perfect practice is better than an hour of ok work. And if one day I’m not feeling like I can get on and ride every single step, I don’t ride that day. It’s better for her to get a day off and need a lunge before our next ride than to get a bad ride. This won’t be forever, but it’s necessary right now.

So she needed to be re-calibrated by someone else. I needed to be re-calibrated on another horse. And we need to do our homework. It’s been hard, but we’ve made more progress in the last couple weeks on this program than we had since April.[/QUOTE]

This ^ you nailed it in your explanation

[greysfordays]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8347206]
Imo, there is also a different between responsive to the leg, forward, and over reactive which we don’t want either.

Her horse is a hunter, correct, so she may not want that quick off the hind leg super energy in the gait reaction a dressage rider might find ideal in a horse…Charlotte is an Olympic competitor and is after a certain kind of uber response so one would do well to adjust that to their own riding and horses temperament as well.[/QUOTE]

Thank you countrywood and netg… I smiled at both your responses as it seems physically impossible to ever have my horse over-reactive to leg.

But everyone is nailing the main point that it’s a disobedience that I’ve allowed to happen and that it will only be corrected with consistent reinforcement. It’s the preference in my sport to have them be “kick quiet” but taken to extreme, it’s almost more dangerous than the horse that bolts.

We’ve had a couple times on course where I correctly see the long one a few strides out, add leg, nothing happens, add leg again and once more and there’s a minor move forward but we end up leaving long and weak. With a scopey horse at a 3 foot jump, it’s not the end of the world but we can’t move up safely with that kind of behavior… not to mention I am SURELY taking years of life off my trainer’s life. :eek:

Thank you again everyone, it’s really helpful getting an alternate perspective, especially one that’s so married to proper horse mechanics. It’s my goal to get some dressage lessons this winter in the off-season to get us in fighting shape next year.

[rjr]

[QUOTE=cheerio280;8346025]
I actually saw this exercise in an eventing clinic, and it was given to another rider, so hopefully I’m remembering the details correctly.

You ask your horse to move forward with the smallest possible aid (just a touch of leg), wait for a response, if no response then ask again a little stronger(all the way up to using your whip to reinforce your leg aid, etc)… and repeat until you get the response you want. If you keep following that progression in a predictable way, the horse should start to respond more quickly and to lighter aids. [/QUOTE]

I have mostly been taught the oposite: Ask once with the kind of aid you want to use (i.e. light). If he doesn’t respond get after him immediately, and enough to get a real response. Then a few seconds later you need to ask for the same thing again (with the light aid). If he gives the correct response, but sure to praise. If he does not respond, then repeat the process. Always repeat until you get the response you want from the light aid.

[EPat]

Lower abs give the cue to move out. NO leg necessary, it is a secondary/supporting aid. You just need to re sensitize him to your seat. And yes, this can be done for a hunter, not just a Dressage position. First, you need to develop a killer set of ab muscles as his reaction to the whip is get further behind your leg (bucking is just about as behind the leg as a horse can get because you have no influence over the hind legs from your seat). Next, you need to develop your rhythm. That is the basis of all Dressage, everyday and our main way of communicating with the horse.
This is the permanent fix answer. It will take you longer, but it will last a lifetime.

[PeteyPie]

I have an observation regarding this issue which has nothing to do with training, which is fine, since people who know volumes more than I do on that subject have already given their advice.

Since you are in Southern California, I am wondering what are the conditions your horse is kept in? I am wondering if he is in the usual stall with tiny paddock, or mare motel/stall/paddock combination, that might be having an affect on his performance – or lack thereof.

I’m thinking it might be a good idea to simply walk this horse for twenty minutes before your lesson, maybe in an interesting surrounding (like outside of the arena) to get a really good and pleasant warmup and loosen the muscles. Since he is a warmblood, I’m assuming he’s a big boy, and it just might help.

This is especially true if he does not have regular turnout and the ability to run and buck on a regular basis.

Another thing: we’ve been having some really hot weather. Does this seem to affect your gelding? Have you noticed a difference if you ride very early or very late when it is cooler?

[greysfordays]

PeteyPie I think that’s a super point, he is on the big side and while he gets a couple hours of turn out, he usually rolls on both sides and then stands stoically in turn out. Typically on Tuesday’s since he’s had Monday off, he’ll go in the round pen before riding to get any bucks out. He has a mandatory minimum amount of bucks he needs to get out every week, sometimes he decides he has a few more when I’m riding him and he feels like a powder keg. I don’t dislike it bc he’s usually more forward.

As far as weather, he really struggled with the heat when he first got here and early this year. i’ve found now that there’s not much correlation. We clipped him two saturdays ago and it was randomly much cooler Sunday morning and he was as lazy as can be. Later the following week at a show, he was actually more energetic in 95+ afternoon heat.

But I think the walking suggestion is SPOT ON. When I can, I do a much longer walk warm up that focuses first on going forward, second on bending (both bending to the inside and counter bending while walking a circle) and lateral work. I did this a lot at our show bc the gate ran super late and I think it actually helped a ton more so on being able to better turn him than having him especially in front of my leg. I’ll definitely do more walking, I think you’re right to think being in a small stall alot of the time is having an impact. Thank you!!

EPat I love what you’re saying here, especially since even though we are hunter riders, my trainer has us sitting the canter most of the time, me especially in an effort to get lift up front and drive the hind legs under.

But I’m really curious what kinds of exercises I can do to make him more sensitive to my seat as far as going forward is concerned and what the order of operations is when he DOESN"T listen to my seat. Same thing with the issue of developing rhythm. My guy has a metronome canter, so what should I be shooting for in terms of developing that further? Thanks ahead of time!

[alterisfine]

So, I will admit that I haven’t read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and didn’t find the answer to my questions. So I have a gelding that is a little dull, but really his biggest problem is he goes from dull to quick. I have followed the same technique with the light aid, no response? use leg and smart smack with the whip. Works wonders to get his listening to my leg, BUT he then gets really quick and doesn’t engage his hind end. He’s a little QH cross and is short strided so I know its hard for him (I am not a softie, so please don’t hear that from this statement). We are really stuck with this situation, beceause I just don’t know what to do. I have been on MANY dull horses and have done a good job getting them forward, but usually don’t get quick, so I am kinda at a loss.

Can anyone help???

[paulaedwina]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;8346030]
Get him out of the ring and gallop. Foxhunt,even.
I know a real famous western pleasure trainer who gets his horses out in a track around the property and gallops them. Improves their way of going and gets them moving of the leg better.[/QUOTE]

I concur. I have a draft cross (Percheron/Standardbred) who was very very behind the leg. He and I, for confidence and fitting up issues, started hacking out our hilly barn where we have 1 mile hilly hack with all kinds of terrain. This summer we got into conditioning rides -4 miles with miles 1 and 4 being walks (warm up and cool down) and miles 2 and 3 being TC with a little bit of W especially in the beginning of the season. It has done wonders for us in a number of ways:

1. I’m fitter so I’m able to actually keep up with ‘forward’.
2. Fella is way fitter so he can actually push from behind.
3. Confidence! Now when I ask for forward I mean it and I’m not going to inadvertently shut it down.
4. Fella has the balance to give me this kind of movement.

So yes, take him outside, up some hills, open him up. I got to see him under someone else yesterday and I couldn’t be more pleased. She is a pure Western rider so thought his “WP gaits” were awesome. So I gave her my dressage whip and had her ride him forward, and he changed gears ever so easily.

Paula

[paulaedwina]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

I took a Patrick King clinic and a bunch of lessons with him (because I love him) and he taught me how to use my dressage whip with Fella and his sucked back ways. For example, I learned to use the whip on the outside at the posting trot and tap on the rise. Worked like a charm.

I am still learning not to nag nag nag with my legs. To ask once and then use my whip -decisively. This is a big one for me. I had been working through some riding anxiety and for a while I didn’t really mean “go” when I said go, so I would use this mincy nagging tap tap tap that he ignored. Now I use the whip to enforce the go I asked for with my leg (once) and I don’t shut it down with my hands.

Paula

[paulaedwina]

[QUOTE=alterisfine;8357285]
So, I will admit that I haven’t read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and didn’t find the answer to my questions. So I have a gelding that is a little dull, but really his biggest problem is he goes from dull to quick. I have followed the same technique with the light aid, no response? use leg and smart smack with the whip. Works wonders to get his listening to my leg, BUT he then gets really quick and doesn’t engage his hind end. He’s a little QH cross and is short strided so I know its hard for him (I am not a softie, so please don’t hear that from this statement). We are really stuck with this situation, beceause I just don’t know what to do. I have been on MANY dull horses and have done a good job getting them forward, but usually don’t get quick, so I am kinda at a loss.

Can anyone help???[/QUOTE]

Hills and ditches!

Paula

[netg]

[QUOTE=alterisfine;8357285]
So, I will admit that I haven’t read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and didn’t find the answer to my questions. So I have a gelding that is a little dull, but really his biggest problem is he goes from dull to quick. I have followed the same technique with the light aid, no response? use leg and smart smack with the whip. Works wonders to get his listening to my leg, BUT he then gets really quick and doesn’t engage his hind end. He’s a little QH cross and is short strided so I know its hard for him (I am not a softie, so please don’t hear that from this statement). We are really stuck with this situation, beceause I just don’t know what to do. I have been on MANY dull horses and have done a good job getting them forward, but usually don’t get quick, so I am kinda at a loss.

Can anyone help???[/QUOTE]

You still aren’t actually getting him in front of your leg. He’s quickening as an evasion to that.

[Ederman]

I purchased a Western Pleasure “reject” earlier this year and have been doing this. He is much forward outside but still a bit dull in the arena. I have been doing some of the exercises and suggestions posted here but he still has a lot of that “Western Pleasure” training in him when it comes to arena work.

[Ederman]

@Doctracy

I know a real famous western pleasure trainer who gets his horses out in a track around the property and gallops them.

May I ask who this trainer is? Is she/he on social media?