Timidly posting about a dull horse

[greysfordays]

hi!
I’m very humbly posting here about a horse that can get very behind my leg. We are rubes :lol: living over in hunter land, but reading the article about Charlotte and having watched a few of her and Carl’s master classes, I’m thinking you lovely dressage people may have ideas. I confess, I really enjoy lurking on your boards!

I have a 6 year old Holsteiner I imported last year. In Germany, when I tried him, he was quite a bit more forward, but it’s my understanding that it’s not uncommon for them to lose a little blood, particularly bringing them to Southern California.

He’s a very talented hunter, with beautiful movements and a big jump. I feel very lucky to have stumbled into such a quality horse.

That said, he is as cold a cold blood as you can find. Way behind my leg a very large portion of my ride. I fully acknowledge this is my doing. I’ve been too nagging with my leg. But I want him to be lighter and learn to as Charlotte says take my leg off him.

Have any of you brought a horse back from the brink of dull nagging? Are there exercises we can practice? Right now I focus on moving forward and coming back within and between gates, like a rubber band.

Sometimes, the slower I build, really just starting for small pace changes at the walk and building on that as we go with lots of reward works really well. Sometimes he’s absolutely indifferent and it still takes a ton of leg to open up the canter in particular.

He can be a bit of a diva if he is in a bad mood, so sometimes if I really get him, he bucks hard or props. What’s the right response in this moment? My trainer will say keep going, don’t make a big deal. Sort of like Charlotte’s master class with the buck during piaffe. But I worry about that approach too.

We did a wonderful dressage lesson at my old barn with a lady who knew quite a bit about hunters, so she was really understanding what we were going for. She got on him and very quickly she had him in what looked to my untrained eye in true self carriage with his own motor carrying him. So it’s definitely in him with a great rider.:yes:

But she acknowledged that he was a lot of work and he naturally wants to move his legs slowly with a particularly big stride at the canter. She encouraged me to push him to move his legs more quickly at the canter even though it feels already so big. He also bucked me clear off from a dead walk, but that more confirmed her belief he was in the right sport being a jumper :eek::lol:

If anyone has ideas for how specifically I can ride him with less leg and make him more responsive, I would be hugely grateful.

[cheerio280]

I actually saw this exercise in an eventing clinic, and it was given to another rider, so hopefully I’m remembering the details correctly.

You ask your horse to move forward with the smallest possible aid (just a touch of leg), wait for a response, if no response then ask again a little stronger(all the way up to using your whip to reinforce your leg aid, etc)… and repeat until you get the response you want. If you keep following that progression in a predictable way, the horse should start to respond more quickly and to lighter aids.

(As an aside- I was taught by a NH cowboy-type how to train a turn on the forehand from the ground. He would start by looking at the horse’s hip, then pointing his whip at it, then tapping lightly, then tapping medium, then tapping hard… up until the horse moved it’s hind end. Eventually his horses would all do the turn on the forehand just with him pointing at their hip. That’s the kind of progression you want- ordered and predictable.)

[Doctracy]

Get him out of the ring and gallop. Foxhunt,even.
I know a real famous western pleasure trainer who gets his horses out in a track around the property and gallops them. Improves their way of going and gets them moving of the leg better.

[Countrywood]

I too have a “dull horse”, who is getting lighter and more forward ( slowly lol but more progress lately). Am sure you will get a lot of advice about how to get him forward, which is what you want, so I won’t repeat what am sure they will say and post 2 already said it.

I will add that what helps us and gets my hosre sharp is a lot of transitions, such as trot, halt, then trot, as well as a lot of lateral work, turn on forheand turn on haunches, leg yield we are doing baby half pass now and for some reason that really perks him up.

Part of these “dull horses” imo is they tune us out and kind of plod along, and getting them sharp to our aids via lateral work is a key to their mind also getting their legs under them , rebalanced and that seems to set off a lightbulb for them as far as responsiveness.

[princessfluffybritch]

You are probably a very good rider with a very nice horse! I had one of those cold blooded block heads that no one but me could make go. Why? He believed me. I meant GO. And never used any strength. I would annoy the carp out of him until I got what I wanted. Tap tap tap with my feet , yelling, waving my arms, shaking him up out of his nap , tap and yell GO!,

You may want to use a dressage whip to back up your leg. Ask with your leg and use the whip where your leg is to get his attention.

You should not have to use any strength, harsher aids, kicking. The horse knows what you want and can feel a fly so there’s no reason to be harsh. It’s called disrespecting. He knows what you want and he’s ignoring you or you are letting it happen or letting him disrespect you. Get mad , you are being ignored. Who pays the bills here? If you make him believe you and listen to you now, you will have much less work in the future.

[sascha]

Dressage whip. I have no patience for horses that insist on being nagged. I just won’t do it. Ask nicely and wait a millisecond for a response. No jumping forward from your nice polite earns him a hard enough swat behind your leg that it shocks him into jumping forward.

You have to let him know you MEAN IT!!! And then, it’s all on you to stop nagging completely. Never nag a lazy horse. Tell him what the deal is and then remind him sharply when he drops his end of the bargain. You want to get him to the point that when you put your leg on he says, “Gallop?” and you say, “Good boy, no, just trot please.”

It’s very simple and extremely effective. The hardest part is for a rider that has fallen into the habit of nagging or using too much leg to break that habit. If you feel yourself working at riding chastise yourself. “Why am I working so hard? That’s HIS job!” and then make it happen. The quicker you can lose the habit, the quicker he will revert to being forward and quite happy with his lot in life. Horses want to know their boundaries, they want them firm, and they don’t actually enjoy being dicks that are constantly irritated by nagging.

They don’t want that, but they’ll follow you down the rabbit hole every. damn. time.

In terms of the bucking, if it’s just a joyful little “wheeee! I’m going forwards!” thing that doesn’t unseat you and isn’t an ingrained habit, then totally ignore it. He’ll get over it.

If, however, it’s dirty, unseats you, is a habit, or otherwise is unproductive or disruptive, get after him. If you can give a smack with the whip, awesome. If he’s unseated you sufficiently that you don’t dare risk smacking him, then do whatever ever you need to do to let him know that that was bad horse behaviour and will not be tolerated.

This won’t be popular, but I have had luck with a sharp one rein turn and a very quick halt with a verbal talking to at the same time. Then, I carry on as if nothing has happened. Very important for the horse to understand that it was that specific behaviour that was bad and not the whole horse that was bad. I have found that with that method the behaviour disappears almost as quickly as it appeared.

Good luck

[Daisyesq]

What Sascha said. Ditto.

I have the same horse as you, OP. I bought him when he was 14 years old, and have shown him through Third Level dressage, and got my Bronze medal. But, every single ride starts with my insisting that he react from my leg. If he’s dull, then we do trot-halt-trot transitions. He gets a big correction from me with whip and kick, “I MEAN IT!” if he doesn’t respond to a light aid.

[mvspencer]

I’d do what Cheerio and Sascha are saying. It works, even on the block heads. But praise is very important, and I’m not sure that anyone else has emphasized that yet. When you get the tiniest response: “good boy!” and when you get a huge response: “good boy!” And start at the walk and work on transitions within gates. Ask for a big walk, praise him and and do that a few times. When you’re ready, ask for a trot, and then ask for a big trot. When he fizzles out, ask for a bigger trot again and praise again. It will be terribly boring for you, but it will get the job done.

[IdahoRider]

I was at the Charlotte Dujardin clinic/symposium this past weekend at this very thing was addressed with several horse and rider pairs.

She pointed out instances where the rider asked for more and the horse ignored the aid. She directed the riders to ask politely once and then demand. She had them take their legs off and give a big time “pony club kick”. The rider would give a little half-hearted nudge and Charlotte would tell them to really kick. She told them to “yee-haw” and gallop.

She reminded them to stay out of the horse’s way so they could actually go forward. You can’t ask for yee-haw with your legs and keep a death grip on the reins. She said to forget how it looked and just get the forward. She said to give them their heads and truly gallop forward. Forward, forward, forward.
Sheilah

[greysfordays]

Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit!

[belgianWBLuver]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;8346030]
Get him out of the ring and gallop. Foxhunt,even.
I know a real famous western pleasure trainer who gets his horses out in a track around the property and gallops them. Improves their way of going and gets them moving of the leg better.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;8346489]I was at the Charlotte Dujardin clinic/symposium this past weekend at this very thing was addressed with several horse and rider pairs.

She pointed out instances where the rider asked for more and the horse ignored the aid. She directed the riders to ask politely once and then demand. She had them take their legs off and give a big time “pony club kick”. The rider would give a little half-hearted nudge and Charlotte would tell them to really kick. She told them to “yee-haw” and gallop.

She reminded them to stay out of the horse’s way so they could actually go forward. You can’t ask for yee-haw with your legs and keep a death grip on the reins. She said to forget how it looked and just get the forward. She said to give them their heads and truly gallop forward. Forward, forward, forward.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

THIS & THIS. Rescued my big BWP guy from a big H/J barn years ago now (boy has time passed!) He was dead to the leg, slow, very disrespectful, would blow up to the dressage whip (I strongly suspect this was overused in the past), and absolutely knew he could get people off by “blowing up” then giving out a big buck and off come the working students or trainers, one by one.
After much ground work to get the respect back, I took him to a young western rider (I call him an “educated cowboy”). He taught him exactly what Charlotte prescribes, Kick… but yet let him go forward. He stayed on during the ugly reactions. A few lessons of this and presto, fwd.
The whip was reintroduced gradually just as a guiding tool for lateral work not for fwd. Fwd comes from the leg & there is no negotiation on this point.

Then he prescribed we get him out of the arena alot (little arena work, lots of outside work). He began by ponying him on the trails, then quickly riding him. Lots of hill work and basically arena exercises on the trails - always with quiet schoolmaster type horses to keep him calm. I overcame my fears and took him out as well with excellent results.
Then we introduced cow work. Just pushing steers from one pen to another or one field to another. He finds this not only interesting but fun. He has developed his confidence understanding that he can “dominate” a steer. We do this work occasionally and find the next day in the arena is fabulous and fwd.

[Daisyesq]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

You need to commit, and get over your (probable) fear of his forward reaction. Because every day that you do not train him to REACT, you are training him to be dull instead. If you use a light aid and he ignores, then kick AND slap with the whip. Allow him to go forward. Then go back to the light aid and insist that he respond to a light aid.

Remember, if he can feel a fly land on his side, then he can feel your light aid. He just doesn’t know it means “forward NOW”, so he ignores it.

I wouldn’t worry about him becoming dull to the whip, if you use it as prescribed by me and Sascha, because you have bigger problems. If you just use the whip to nag him like you are currently nagging with your leg aid, then he probably will learn to ignore the whip too.

Enjoy your ride!

[Daisyesq]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

You need to commit, and get over your (probable) fear of his forward reaction. Because every day that you do not train him to REACT, you are training him to be dull instead. If you use a light aid and he ignores, then kick AND slap with the whip. Allow him to go forward. Then go back to the light aid and insist that he respond to a light aid.

Remember, if he can feel a fly land on his side, then he can feel your light aid. He just doesn’t know it means “forward NOW”, so he ignores it.

I wouldn’t worry about him becoming dull to the whip, if you use it as prescribed by me and Sascha, because you have bigger problems. If you just use the whip to nag him like you are currently nagging with your leg aid, then he probably will learn to ignore the whip too.

Enjoy your ride!

[sascha]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

I should have clarified that above in my post. For the truly behind the leg lug of a horse, they will get the works - whip smartly along with leg which may include spur.

To answer your question about making a horse dependent on whip, that’s up to you. You can either make him understand that you absolutely mean it every time, or you can be inconsistent. OR, you can stop riding with a whip too early in the re-programming phase and he can figure that out.

Tips to prevent whip dependency:

Never use a whip on its own. Always use it to reinforce an ignored aid.

After having been forced to use the whip, repeat the exercise (say a W-Trot trans), fully expecting not to have to use the whip the next time. If the response is as quick and forward as it was to the whip, all good. If not, use it again. Repeat until he wants to rush forwards when he feels your tiny polite little leg aid.

Wear spurs if possible so that when you do ride without a whip (which you should do occasionally after re-programming has been successful), you have back up if he gets wise to the no whip status.

Take him outside, away from the ring, and show him that going forward is FUN! Once a week is a great start. More would be better.

[mxkextended]

She ALSO said to praise them, pat them for the responses

[netg]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

I agree with Sascha that if done correctly it won’t be a concern, and that yes, you MUST be consistent. My mom’s mare rarely voluntarily leaves a walk, and had been trained to be dull before we got her. That consistency, from the instant I got on, worked to retrain her. I got her awake and responsive before my mom got on every ride, so my mom could just enjoy her. Now, a 7 year old can get on and get her to lengthen and collect her trot stride just off tightening of the right ab muscles. She just stays in front of the leg… thanks to consistency.

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]
Thanks everyone, this is super helpful. I think when I have yeehaw kicked, he inconsistently will either ignore me or actually go forward. But I think I need to ride with a dressage whip, my trainer actually does this and I have a stupid jumping bat that my lovely lug probably thinks is a love tap.

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.

Thank you again everyone, you’ve all reminded me how the most critical thing is consistency. I need to commit![/QUOTE]

I have the same problem as you - lovely horse who just feels that life doesn’t require quite as much effort as I would like I definitely work harder than him more than I’d like. Fortunately, he is willing just lazy!

Everyone is right - consistency is key. Its my absolute biggest weakness as an amateur rider - some days I’m on the ball and other days I’m distracted/thinking about work and our quality of work is not great. Unfortunately, those days help teach him that going forward is optional. So, I make a really big effort to do a TON of transitions on those days. And give him breaks, so that when we are working, we are truly doing good quality, forward work. The distinction between ‘on’ and ‘off’ is helpful.

I think a dressage whip is a super option for these types of horses. I don’t use it a ton, but its always there to reinforce my leg aids. I will ask for forward/sideways with a reasonable leg aid, then amp it up to a strong leg aid. If that doesn’t get a response, I will add the whip as encouragement. I don’t skip from subtle leg aid to the whip. Others may have thoughts on the right/wrong of that, however. At the end of the day, I don’t want my horse too sensitive to the leg even if a professional might.

I don’t worry about not having it in competition as this simply hasn’t been an issue. Truthfully I don’t find I need the whip terribly often, so as long as the ride after the show involves the whip so I can correct if necessary, my horse seems to remain ‘tuned up’.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Backstage;8346892]
I will ask for forward/sideways with a reasonable leg aid, then amp it up to a strong leg aid. If that doesn’t get a response, I will add the whip as encouragement. I don’t skip from subtle leg aid to the whip. [/QUOTE]

Amping it up gradually is nagging.

Allowing that reasonable aid to go ignored is encouraging the horse to not come to work today. “I think I’ll phone it in today, George.”

Do you want to be THAT kid in the grocery store who whines at mommy several times in increasingly annoying tones about wanting a particular brand of cereal?

Or, do you want to be the person who leads the dance with the most pleasant, eager to please, happy horse ever?

I don’t mind what you want to be, but your horse does

[IdahoRider]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8346748]

One question, if I at first use a light aid and he ignores do I kick hard and tap with the whip or just tap with the whip? I’m nervous about something Charlotte said about horse’s being really trained to the whip and then having it taken away at competition, falling behind the leg. I won’t be able to bring a nice dressage whip with me into competition and my horse, lug that he is, is no dummie.
QUOTE]
Yep. She took the whips away from anyone that wasn’t working on piaffe. She said that the horses get trained to the whip, recognize when you don’t have it and ignore your aid when they know you can’t back it up.

She really had people KICKING their horses forward and it worked. Those horses learned to MOVE forward when asked.
Sheilah

[CELook]

I bought the Jane Savoie Happy Horse DVD course and one of the first lessons is about making your horse more forward thinking. I found it so useful for my behind the leg horse. You should whisper your aids and your horse should shout their response!
Jane’s instructions are basically exactly what cheerio280 said. Except that you never move forward with a correction. So if you ask your horse to trot and you have to correct them with a kick or tap, bring them back to the previous gait and ask softly again. Once they are shouting their response, praise them. It depends on your horse what type of correction you need. Some need just a kick and some need a kick and tap.
My horse is pretty lazy so we do have to review this every so often =)