Tips for when they curl + run

I’m riding a 15 year old former jumper (I understand she competed “around the world” and was very good in the jump ring) who’s being re-schooled to hopefully sell as a third level dressage horse. She’s a lot of fun! I’m trying to figure out the best way to teach her to listen to my seat better. She’s 17.2 and has a very responsive “go” button, which is great. Her brakes aren’t as well established. I think she’s used to being told to stop with a lot of rein. When she gets tired or excited, her go-to move is to duck behind the vertical and become a freight train.

My knee hurts from using so much thigh squeeze and seat to try to get her to come back without getting into a pulling match. I’m doing my best to try to keep her light in the hands and in front of the vertical. We do lots of transitions, trying to keep them as “up and in front” and from the seat as possible. But man oh man it’s hard. She starts off beautifully in the warm-up, then gets progressively faster and wanting to curl more and more as we go (and I think as she gets tired).

Does anyone have some good tips for a horse like this? It’s tricky to keep her moving over her back and forward, without ducking under and racing on the forehand. I really don’t want to pull her up on the rein to stop, but those are the brakes she’s used to.

I’m guessing that you mean in the canter, and that in the other gaits you can manage her. Because she’s been a jumper, she likely doesn’t bend very well. You can, therefore, kill 2 birds with one stone. Put her on a 20m circle in trot. Spiral down until you are doing a 10m circle, then leg yield back out. When she can perform this exercise easily, with correct bend, maintaining her balance and rhythm, then do it in the canter. A jumper will have been taught to turn on a dime at a gallop, but they aren’t bending, and certainly can’t do it in collection. A 10m canter circle therefore, will be difficult and quite likely keep her slower.

Also, rather than just relying on transitions, get her obedient to your half halts. H/J horses are usually taught a rein half halt. You will have to teach her correct half halts by starting out walk to halt, then trot to walk transitions, until she’s very keen to your seat and leg and will respond to the half halt rather than a full downward transition. THEN, you can add in canter transitions, using half halts to maintain her balance before, during and after the transition. This will help keep her out of your hands as much. Good luck.

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Thank you! She does it in the trot too. We are definitely working on getting better bend - she’s got some but it’s an ongoing work in process. the idea of collection is there, but obviously not in her established wheel-house. I think that’s why she gets very tired. 10 minutes of working on collecting and then forward in trot (working on lateral exercises as we go) and she’s exhausted. She can do 10 meter circles in canter and trot. I like the leg-yield idea and the half-halt in walk. I think of a “half-halt” of walk to halt as a full transition?

The idea of bringing her back down to walk to get the half-halts more responsive is a good idea, thanks.

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A lot of it is strength on her part. And some of it will not be pretty - bumping her up off your hand and in front of the bit when she curls and then pushing her up/out to meet the bit with your leg.

Some of these horses do well with squares. Start by walking a 20m square, with 1/4 turns on the haunches in the corners. Then start trotting or cantering the sides, return to walk, walk a 1/4 turn on the haunches, repeat.

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Thanks, I think a lot of it definitely is strength and that’s why the connection deteriorates after the warm-up.

I try to bump her up and support with leg. That’s when she runs. So it’s a bump up, leg-support, and she might then be up in front of the vertical but she’s flying in speed. The tricky thing is getting her to bump in front and then not go 80 miles an hour (which is about getting the understanding of the half-halt aid from seat and leg, because if I try to half-halt re-applying the rein even a little bit too much, it’s back to curl city).

I like the square idea. She’s also very crooked and we’ve been working on similar exercises to help get her straight. We will continue to work on these, thanks.

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Sorry I wasn’t clear. To teach a horse half halt, you begin by walk halt transitions, then push the walk forward a bit and give a light half halt. Keep your leg on - the horse will respond and collect the walk rather than offering the full halt.

Yes, I figured that’s what you meant. She does understand seat and leg when she wants to - after our cool out walk, I ask a gentle stop aid basically just flexing my abs to use my seat softly and she stops. I laughed like “ha, ok you do understand when you’re in the mood to stop anyway”.

I’ll just keep at it with patience. She gets very excited in the trot and canter and when something is hard, she wants to just go faster and faster. I also try bringing her back to the halt periodically and just stopping there for a moment so she can relax and try to lose the mindset of “ahhhh I’ll just run away from this”.

As tricky as it is with the curling and quickness, it is a nice change to have a horse that is always willing to move forward. This is the first horse in a long time I don’t ever need a spur/ is the opposite of “kick ride” feeling. Those jumpers really know how to establish the “GO” button. She has fairly nice gaits and a really lovely natural medium trot/ medium canter that are fun to do in those moments I get her in a decent frame before curling again. She’s so grateful for a long side of medium canter lol - like “YESSSS this I can do, goooooo!” :lol:

I like candy ribbon serpentines for horses like this mare but I can’t find a good article on how to ride them. Essentially you 3/4 of a 10 meter circle, and then change directions across the diagonal, do another 3/4 of a 10 meter circle and change direction across the other diagonal. And you keep going up and down the length of the ring. I like them because its a challenging figure for the horse if they want to go fast or not bend. The shape of the figure requires that they slow down and carry themselves nicely while avoiding getting into a pissing match with the rider.

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Thank you!

Agree, and you can also add counter-bend in the candy-ribbons to really instill the “hey, horse, let’s accept some input” vibe. This was extremely helpful for my hot, self-protective mare.

Another potentially useful exercise is nose-to-wall leg yield. She can curl as much as she wants (as an evasion, not recommending this as a training technique) but going straight will hit the wall, so she’s going to have to compromise a bit. As soon as she softens or lets you back in to control the pace or tempo, ease off of the leg yield and let her go straight. Rinse, repeat.

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My mare would be like this if I rode her wrong. If anything goes wrong, she goes faster. So, perhaps like yours, if she loses her balance or gets faster, she thinks the solution is to run faster. This is not a horse I want to teach to curl behind the bit, so I ride her pre-emptively the way I’d suggest you ride your horse now.

It is a strength thing. So ride her correctly (from your body and seat, not your hand), but do that at speeds and or figures that don’t overwhelm the postural strength she has.

On the other hand, accept too much speed (and those are different at the trot and the canter). That’s because if you go to your hand to slow here down or stop her after she has ignored your half-halt, you’ll teach her that a big pull from your hand is coming. Any horse would stay curled if they are going to meet that much hand while they were already out of balance and falling on their forehand. So you have to focus on getting the half-halt, on getting the rock back from her shoulders without worrying about the neck. That’s easier said than ridden.

I’d suggestion one exercise to add to the logic built into the “ride a square” exercise. Here, I’d start at the canter and think of the length of stride and balance (forward or back) as being on a scale of 1 to 5. A 1 is so collected that you could step down into a walk; a 5 is a brisk but rate-able hand gallop (probably with you sitting or in a very deep half-seat-- but your butt enough in the tack to be able to influence your mare with your seat).

And then you ride her in four strides at each number. Most of the time, you’ll stay between 2 and 4. Pick up a canter and get a nice 3. Ride her there for four strides. Because I like to make sure I have forward and a good, quick hind end, I’d ask for four strides at the 4 canter. When you get that, ask her to come back to a 3. Bring your shoulders back first. While you are sitting, ask with your body again in the next stride. With a bit of collection added, now you can add some hand in the third stride. Wait and enjoy what you got (or don’t enjoy what you didn’t get) for that fourth stride.

That’s the first money shot of this exercise-- asking with your body in a gait where it’s relatively easy to collect during the moment of suspension. For a made horse like yours, this is why I’d start at the canter. You can do this at the trot, too, but it’s not as easy to ride and not as easy for the horse to change so much from your body. But they should learn to do it. A horse who can lengthen and shorten by following your post will be the horse that you don’t need to hand ride.

Back to the exercise. At the end of that fourth stride, change the pace to a 3 canter. If you got a very soft, waiting and uncurled horse, ask for a 2 canter for 4 strides. If not, go back up the the 4 canter for four strides.

The other money shots to this exercise are two: First, the horse never has to hold that collection for very long, so listening to your seat is possible, physically, and the horse gets to “hear” your seat as the half-halt aid because you are changing it often and they can feel the contrast. Second, you never try for collection long enough to need to take with your hand. That’s why I said “or don’t enjoy what you didn’t get” for that last stride. No matter what you get, who cares? the canter will change in the next stride anyway. You can come back and try again in a few rounds.

I think the “ride a square turn” works for the same reason-- it gets the rider to deliver a short, and body-based half halt.

But with a horse who can curl and run, the whole point of any of these is to really set yourself up to have to pull hard in order to get your half halt; don’t let her sucker you into giving her the hand ride (including the finally set-her-on-her-ass halt). It sounds like that’s the ride she’s already had and gotten used to.

Some of getting this right will involving learning on her part (learning to hear your body-based half-halt as an aid) and lots of it will be gaining enough strength to answer that aid. The transitions within a gait are easier than between gaits (and also, I think we ride those within-gait transitions better), but all transitions help build the postural strength you need.

I think very good riders get used to riding with a bit too much pace rather than crimping up the neck in order to get canter that they do want to ride. I think this is true for good colt breakers and for auction riders. I don’t think this is most dressage ammies. But a made-but-forward horse like yours is pretty safe. Just commit to not asking for any more collection or slowness than you can get without producing the curl. But I do think it scares them a tad to be allowed to airplane around so that we can allow their neck to stretch out. I think this is the reason for riding in one of these exercises that has a lot of half-halts in it, and for the nice “candy ribbon” serpentine and the logic of teaching the horse that you will give them an attentive ride in the way that @cnm161 mentioned.

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Thank you - the accept too much speed approach is what we mostly do. She’s 17.2 and about 20 feet long so we clear a long side in a second or two.

The within gaits up and downs are a good idea, and a lot of what we do already. I will continue. To clarify, she’s not my horse, I’m just riding her a few times a week to help get her ready to sell as a “dressage” prospect. As mentioned, she’s 15 and used to the competitive jumper ring and a different kind of ride for sure. I’m working with some well established habits she already has, so it’s fun but a challenge.

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Stopping before she gets that tired is a strategy I would use. Short buts of quality work will get you there faster than pushing for longer sessions and inadvertently practicing things you don’t want to reinforce.

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Haven’t read all the posts, so forgive me if I’m repeating something someone else has suggested. I’ve ridden a jumper like this - my current horse also has a bit of this tendency when not in consistent enough work.

The owner’s tip was to use my leg differently than I had been to engage the brakes without relying entirely on hand. I would not have known without his instruction, but the hands were not the brakes this horse had been taught. He wanted me to sit really deep, keep my leg long, and wrap my leg under to lift the belly up, like “hug and lift” with my entire leg. For this to happen,the inner thigh muscles need to be softened - outer thigh is used. Of course, your core and back support must also be pretty effective for this to do anything other than cue the horse to go faster.

I never really developed a consistent skill at that with that horse, but did come close to getting it right now and then, and I have used it successfully with my own horse - both in dressage and jump tack. It is a valuable tool to have in the toolbox.

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Update - she is going much, much better! We’re having a lot more luck with half-halts and I’ve been incorporating some of the exercises here. However, I don’t let her get quite so fast before I bring her back. I was employing that technique, to be really soft and “hands-off” and she was nearly galloping in my lesson. I didn’t feel in danger, but it must have looked alarming to my coach.

This thread has helped me to realize she’s actually quite a hot horse (duh). For some reason I wasn’t thinking of her like that, since she’s not spooky and feels “safe”. Her owner (the jumper trainer) made some jokes about this horse taking off with her and it clicked.

I think our riding together has gotten much improved as she’s built a bit more strength and has calmed down/we’ve gotten our groove together that she doesn’t get so worried when things are hard and trusts I’ll give her a break. I actually got kind of sad when I heard they found a likely buyer at a jumper barn, who just wants a jump horse with some good “flat work” (filmed in the potential sales video we made of our dressage work). I realize she’s too crooked to ever really be sold for what they’re asking as a dressage horse (and totally makes sense they’d sell her as a jump horse if they could - it’s her obvious talent), but I was enjoying the challenge. If she’s still not sold later this year and they eventually hold shows again, it was my goal to do a 3-1 test on her to see if we can get above 60%, since I think we can and sometimes it’s more fun riding a “challenge” horse, I guess?

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