Tips to help fix my chair seat help!

[WildLittleWren]

I have just recently gotten back into the dressage world. I have a green mustang I have brought along myself. I have recently started having my daughter take pictures and videos when I ride so that I can critique myself and give myself things to work on while I am trying to find the right instructor for us. I am talking to several who allow trailer in, as I don’t have an arena or any decent flat place to really school in.

One reoccurring trend I have noticed is I have a horrible chair seat now in the walk. I tend to slump and rock back on my butt at the walk. Ironically my legs seem to stay in the proper place, they don’t swing forward.

I am finding I am having a hard time to move my pelvis to where I sit properly and don’t end up back on my butt. I never had a problem years ago, but my body just isn’t the same it was before having 5 kids and incurring several back injuries. I have a lot of pain in my lower back, hips, and tailbone. I THINK my body has adjusted this way because it sort of “protects” those areas a bit more.

At the posting trot I tend to lean forward into more of a hunter/jumper position. In the sitting trot, the opposite happens, back to the chair seat. At the canter, I feel I am riding the most balanced.

I also think part of the problem is that I am on a greenie, who is unbalanced herself, and rather small for me, with a small barrel. I have a hard time keeping my center of balance on her because of this, on top of that the typical greenness, she is unbalanced and she really doesn’t have any rhythm yet.

Are there any exercises, either on or off my horse that I can do? Anyone with back pain that could help me out here? I go to a chiro regularly and get adjusted, but I also have mild scoliosis in my middle back, and I also had a locked right hip and locked sacrum for many years my chiro said, it took 3 months of regular chiro work to even get me unlocked. My right side is my weak side (as well as my mare’s, yay!). I always know when I am out of whack because I simply can’t use my right seat bone properly and my mare starts falling in on circles because I can’t properly ask for inside to outside rein with my seat.

Does anyone think maybe lessons on a better trained horse would progress me faster? Or should I just trailer in to lessons, so that a trainer can work with us both together? Or a combination of both? I am on a very limited budget for lessons, however I don’t need an upper level instructor at the moment, just someone that maybe has gone through 3rd level or so, and can be eyes on the ground and drill me and get onto me in the moment so that I can learn to feel when I am slipping back into these habits, and so that I have tools to help me progress to a better seat. That leaves me a little more wiggle room, as I can potentially use someone starting their training career or someone in less demand because they have done xyz at the upper levels, and thus I am not having to pay $100+ per lesson.

Please be kind, my journey may be different from others, I do not have any illusions that I will ever be an upper level rider or show upper level, but I do want to progress with my mare, and become a more proficient rider and partner so that I can bring my mare along up through the lower levels. It is just super frustrating because while I used to show up through second level and was at one point schooling third, and I know how well I used to ride, and I know what I am supposed to be doing, my body just isn’t cooperating! I can look at the video and go oh my gosh, I am doing this wrong, my leg should be here, my inside shoulder is dropped, etc. But I have lost my feel when riding so that I don’t realize it until I have viewed the video and the moment has passed, it wasn’t corrected or felt while it was happening. Thus, why I am searching out a capable instructor to help us along. In the meantime though, any advice is appreciated!

[sheltona01]

First off, please be kind to yourself. It takes years to develop the proper position. Do not force your body into a position because it is “correct”. I have seen too many people do that and it ends up hurting their body more. It is really hard to tell, but do try stretching off the horse to see if that helps. I suggest targeting your hip flexors and core area. The other thing to think about is your saddle. It can put your in a horrible position and cause you to sit in a chair seat. Some of the causes is the wrong balance of the saddle, too big of seat, ect.

[Scribbler]

I would suggest going to a physiotherapist since the body alignment and pain issues you report will absolutely make it difficult to keep riding.

I would also suggest finding an instructor that specializes in seat training and human biomechanics at least initially.

I would not worry about “doing dressage” per se until you get your balance and pain issues under control. You can’t ride on clear contact if you don’t have an independent seat.

While a chair seat isn’t great, it’s very different if you have one because if external causes or laziness, versus because you are in pain and have long term chronic injury. You need to deal with the injuries first and not beat yourself up about how you look right now.

[WildLittleWren]

@sheltona01

First off, please be kind to yourself. It takes years to develop the proper position. Do not force your body into a position because it is “correct”. I have seen too many people do that and it ends up hurting their body more. It is really hard to tell, but do try stretching off the horse to see if that helps. I suggest targeting your hip flexors and core area. The other thing to think about is your saddle. It can put your in a horrible position and cause you to sit in a chair seat. Some of the causes is the wrong balance of the saddle, too big of seat, ect.

I appreciate the feedback! I finally have a saddle that fits both myself and my horse. I was riding in a 17.5" seat for geez, like forever. My horse’s massage therapist pointed out to me that the seat was WAY too big for me and tipped me back. After a lot of searching and trying numerous saddles, I finally found the right one with the help of a really good local saddle fitter. Turns out I ride in a 16.5" seat! And I finally found one short enough for my mare’s back, as almost everything we tried on her sat on her sacroiliac area. So, I am at least confident that now I am in a saddle that fits!

I tend to be hard on myself, and I am the type of person that just rides through my pain. However, I rode Saturday and I was so aggressive with myself trying to force myself to stay balanced (counterproductive in hindsight, I know), that for the past two days my hips and tailbone hurt SO BAD I keep having spasms.

[Hej]

@Scribbler

I would suggest going to a physiotherapist since the body alignment and pain issues you report will absolutely make it difficult to keep riding.

I would also suggest finding an instructor that specializes in seat training and human biomechanics at least initially.

I would not worry about “doing dressage” per se until you get your balance and pain issues under control. You can’t ride on clear contact if you don’t have an independent seat.

While a chair seat isn’t great, it’s very different if you have one because if external causes or laziness, versus because you are in pain and have long term chronic injury. You need to deal with the injuries first and not beat yourself up about how you look right now.

All of this post is spot on!!! Your chiro may be able to recommend a PT for you to work wirh.

Also, check that your saddle fits you and is sitting level (back to front and side to side). A saddle that sits low behind can put you into a chair seat.

If you’re not sure of your eye, several saddle companies have fitting videos on line. Off the top of my head I know Passier has a good one, and there are many others.

[Nestor]

A saddle can theoretically fit you, and still not help you be centered and balanced on the horse. Where the stirrup bars are set, where the balance point is on the seat, whether the seat is level front to back, all can affect/cause a chair seat. If you’re rocking back on your bum and slouching, it sounds like your saddle could be cantle low (low in the back), causing the balance point to be too far back and therefore causing your hips to rotate back and cause your slouch. Similarly, at posting trot, that too-far-back balance point can cause you to lean forward in order to be able to get up when posting.

[WildLittleWren]

@Nestor

A saddle can theoretically fit you, and still not help you be centered and balanced on the horse. Where the stirrup bars are set, where the balance point is on the seat, whether the seat is level front to back, all can affect/cause a chair seat. If you’re rocking back on your bum and slouching, it sounds like your saddle could be cantle low (low in the back), causing the balance point to be too far back and therefore causing your hips to rotate back and cause your slouch. Similarly, at posting trot, that too-far-back balance point can cause you to lean forward in order to be able to get up when posting.

My last one was cantle low. This one holds me in nicely, and looks completely even front and back. It has a much deeper seat as well when my last one was relatively…flat. It might be worth having someone else take a peek at it though with me in it again, to see if perhaps it is somehow throwing me off.

[alibi_18]

@WildLittleWren

…that for the past two days my hips and tailbone hurt SO BAD I keep having spasms.

You shouldn’t hurt yourself while riding. It is ridiculous and counter productive. Riding is not worth having spasmes for 2 days.

Also, since no one is on the ground watching you, there is no way to tell if what you are injuring yourself for is good or not.

You have injuries and limitations.

I think you need to reevaluate your goals.

Before videotaping yourself, were you having fun?

You bought a green mustang and both of you have lots of weaknesses. What you both need to do is strenghten you core. You, from exercices outside of riding and your horse, from lunging and groundwork.

As for you, unless the situation is being dangerous and you are in dire need of a trainer, keep riding the way you were and have fun taking some general lessons when you can. But don’t hurt yourself.

[soloudinhere]

I have a suspicion that 16.5 seat is not right. Unless you’re very petite - that would not be a common size for an adult over about 5’2" tall. If the seat is not right, you will try to correct for that by doing incorrect things. Leaning forward at the trot is typically caused by chasing a stirrup bar that is out in front of you. Collapsing backwards at the walk would bear that out.

[Scribbler]

If you are fit, healthy, and a good rider you can get up into almost any saddle and put in a credible ride.

The more strikes against you as far as physical imbalances, pain, and wobbly seat, the fussier you need to be about saddle fit.

But you still need to fix your body as well as you can off the horse. Riding should not be actively painful. A little muscle exhaustion in inner thighs for the first month, ok. But actual pain in other parts of your body needs attention. It won’t go away just with more saddle time.

[WildLittleWren]

@alibi_18

You shouldn’t hurt yourself while riding. It is ridiculous and counter productive. Riding is not worth having spasmes for 2 days.

Also, since no one is on the ground watching you, there is no way to tell if what you are injuring yourself for is good or not.

You have injuries and limitations.

I think you need to reevaluate your goals.

Before videotaping yourself, were you having fun?

You bought a green mustang and both of you have lots of weaknesses. What you both need to do is strenghten you core. You, from exercices outside of riding and your horse, from lunging and groundwork.

As for you, unless the situation is being dangerous and you are in dire need of a trainer, keep riding the way you were and have fun taking some general lessons when you can. But don’t hurt yourself.

Actually she was a pretty much start from scratch mustang. She was an extreme mustang makeover drop out. She just couldn’t learn at a quicker pace, and the trainer didn’t want to blow her mind. She was highly reactive, and just hadn’t learned to trust yet. I adopted her from her, as I love a challenge and have trained many horses over the years. In fact, that training is where most of my injuries occurred. I used to be the person friends called for horses that no one else would touch. I enjoyed bringing those horses along, and seeing the results. However, I stopped taking on the crazies, and difficult after a particularly bad accident. Just because I can handle antics, doesn’t mean I want to put my life at risk for other’s problem horses.

My mustang is fabulous! I have trained many many horses, and we are way past any sort of silliness. Although to be fair, I did 10 months of ground work with her and preparing her for being started under saddle, that I haven’t had any silliness or issues with her under saddle. I haul her out to trail heads and ride off property regularly. I enjoy spending time with her, on or off her, and love her to death. I took her to an obstacle play day and had a total BLAST with her. I plan on doing more than just dressage with her, and in fact enjoy doing all those things.

Before I started micromanaging my seat, we were both having a blast. I was relaxed, and came away always happy with our ride, and excited to come back out again to put in our next adventure together.

I think some of the pressure I am putting on myself is that I REALLY want to take her to a local schooling show at the end of August. Ideally I just want comments from the judge to help us focus on a few good things to work on with where we are at. But, I don’t want to make a fool of myself either. So that is when I started really applying the pressure to myself. My mare is a tryer. She will really do anything or try anything to please me. I guess I need to just step back and look at the bigger picture. I own her because I enjoy the relationship I have with her. I enjoy doing things with her, on or off of her. Last night it was pouring, so we played around with some carrot stretches underneath the barn, desensitizing with a towel (don’t ask how that came about lol, my daughter was running around doing chores with it over her head, so I was like hey, why not!), braided her mane, did some basic groundwork fine tuning etc.

[WildLittleWren]

@soloudinhere

I have a suspicion that 16.5 seat is not right. Unless you’re very petite - that would not be a common size for an adult over about 5’2" tall. If the seat is not right, you will try to correct for that by doing incorrect things. Leaning forward at the trot is typically caused by chasing a stirrup bar that is out in front of you. Collapsing backwards at the walk would bear that out.

I am 5’7" with ridiculously (in my opinion) long legs. Let me see if I can find an actual close up picture of me in the saddle. I had a saddle fitter tell me it was perfect for myself and my horse. It does fit my mare like a glove. And I do feel a significant difference than with my last saddle. But, perhaps I was steered wrong! I am open to all opinions, advice, and help!

[WildLittleWren]

@Scribbler

If you are fit, healthy, and a good rider you can get up into almost any saddle and put in a credible ride.

The more strikes against you as far as physical imbalances, pain, and wobbly seat, the fussier you need to be about saddle fit.

But you still need to fix your body as well as you can off the horse. Riding should not be actively painful. A little muscle exhaustion in inner thighs for the first month, ok. But actual pain in other parts of your body needs attention. It won’t go away just with more saddle time.

I agree. I really need to look into physiotherapy. The chiropractic office I go to does offer it. I am going to look into getting an appointment. Basically, my xrays show that the padding you usually have between your vertebrae is almost non-existent in the first 6 of my lower vertebrae. So, essentially, they grind with any sort of movement, against one another.

Riding isn’t actually painful in the moment. But, it is later that day and the next day.

[alibi_18]

@WildLittleWren

These are the best pictures I can find close up. I can also have my daughter take a better, closer up picture of me in the saddle this evening when I go out to the barn.

And yes, I am aware I have many more issues to fix even just based on these pictures :lol:

Based on these picture, you will look and be perfectly fine at any local schooling show no matter what happen.

If you go to show to receive comments for you to learn from, why would you want to be perfect? You need to show the judge where you at, not where you think you could or should be.
Also, being judged is not a lesson. They might give you some pointers on what to work on, but it won’t give you a clue on how to achieve it. That’s what lessons are for.

If your mare is already good with outings and all, I would skip the show and take lessons instead.
To me, it would be way more valuable.

Relax and have fun.

ETA. As for the saddle, it seems to look ok (a tad squeezed) so it’s kinda odd that you fit in a 16.5, especially with your long legs.

[NJRider]

@soloudinhere

I have a suspicion that 16.5 seat is not right. Unless you’re very petite - that would not be a common size for an adult over about 5’2" tall. If the seat is not right, you will try to correct for that by doing incorrect things. Leaning forward at the trot is typically caused by chasing a stirrup bar that is out in front of you. Collapsing backwards at the walk would bear that out.

Based on the photo, this is 100% correct. I know it is very hard to find a GOOD saddle fitter, trainer etc but whoever told you you needed a 16.5, they are wrong. A lot of fitters are sales people and/or do not fit both the horse and rider.

A really good instructor can be invaluable to help you find the right saddle if they are educated and are doing their job. I would re-group and find a good instructor and go from there.

[soloudinhere]

I agree that the 16.5 fits your (very slim!) behind very well but the leg is all wrong. The longer the leg, the more seat room you need and the blocks have to work with that - you are currently chasing your foot behind a block that is shoving your leg back because it is meant for someone much shorter than you, possibly a child.

i know it is vogue for the point of the knee to be BELOW the end of the block but that actually only works if you are never out of the saddle eg riding trot. If you are, that no longer works.

this photo of Laura Tomlinson (a taller, leggier rider) shows the bend in the knee and length of block that is correct. You can’t possibly balance and have proper alignment of the spine if you’re working off a too-straight leg. Imagine trying to walk around on your tiptoes - that is what you are trying to do on the horse if you are trying to ride with your hips almost over your knees.

[WildLittleWren]

@soloudinhere

I agree that the 16.5 fits your (very slim!) behind very well but the leg is all wrong. The longer the leg, the more seat room you need and the blocks have to work with that - you are currently chasing your foot behind a block that is shoving your leg back because it is meant for someone much shorter than you, possibly a child.

i know it is vogue for the point of the knee to be BELOW the end of the block but that actually only works if you are never out of the saddle eg riding trot. If you are, that no longer works.

this photo of Laura Tomlinson (a taller, leggier rider) shows the bend in the knee and length of block that is correct. You can’t possibly balance and have proper alignment of the spine if you’re working off a too-straight leg. Imagine trying to walk around on your tiptoes - that is what you are trying to do on the horse if you are trying to ride with your hips almost over your knees.

This makes complete and total sense! Thank you!

Also, I am scheduling a lesson as we speak with a local trainer. My daughter has taken lessons from her, and I like her teaching and knowledge base a lot. I think I am, sadly, going to put the show I was going to go to, on the back burner. There will be more shows in the future. I need to sort out the saddle situation, get into regular lessons, and go from there.

I really appreciate everyone putting everything into perspective for me!

[hoopoe]

I suspect your saddle is wrong. I suspect the location of the stirrup bars might be too far forward. I also note a trend from the pictures to toe out. this might add to the notion that the stirrup bar is too far forward and you cannot drop your legs out of your hip , ( downward) . You may need a slightly larger seat where you can sit more forward or a saddle designed with a stirrup bar further back. Also a flatter, more open seat rather than one that is deep.

I agree that 16.5 seat is pretty darn rare in dressage saddles. that is a small seat

due respect to saddle fitters and chiros, but I would trust the eye of a good dressage trainer to say the saddle fits your seat, over the others. I had one trusted saddle fitter and if you were in my area I would recommend him.

A trainers eye may help and too some lunge lessons. Ask your new trainer about this. Perhaps they may have some different type saddles to try.

remember in the walk to show your pride, sit up and take joy in marching forward

I am 5.7 and rode a 15.1 QH you look abut the same size on your mare as I did. he wore a 17.5 Schlese which had some alterations to account for his somewhat beefy shoulder. I also had the stirrup bars set a little further back. I also pulled the knee blocks, preferring a somewhat flatter more open seat

[WildLittleWren]

My chiropractor came out today to adjust my mare and he used to be a Schleese saddle fitter. I had him take a peek at my saddle while he was out. The saddle does fit my mare, the saddle fitter I used got that right. However he didn’t even need me to sit in the saddle to determine that the stirrup bars are too far forward, and it is a male saddle? Ugh. So it looks like back to the saddle search. It just really is depressing because it fits my hard to fit mare like a glove :no: