So my mare is my dream horse. Have taken her from barely broke and wild OTTB to the most honest and careful Preliminary horse ever. Dressage scores vary a lot but I’m really thrilled with the show jumping and the cross country. Except that we don’t make xc time. For awhile I thought it was me because the courses were a big deal and I was taking my time to get it all just right. But now that the courses do not keep me awake at night after walking them and she does not bat an eye at any of it… We still can’t make time. By a lot. We average about 10 faults. More when it’s hot. So I’m weighing it all… Do the surgery with the risks involved. Or just compete in cold weather when we only get a couple time. Would much better conditioning improve it enough to forego surgery? I want her to feel like a million bucks. Right now she’s struggling a bit. She adds in xc combinations towards the middle and end of the course. Once through the finish, she recovers very fast. I feel like her baseline fitness is excellent. We just can’t sustain 520 with jumps for 5 minutes.
The risks I’ve read about and the problems I’ve seen are ghastly. I also know of a success story.
I’d like to take her on up through one star and stop there. I think she’d do extremely well if she could breathe.
I just read a 2018 article from KER about how the race horses who had the surgery had shorter careers than those who didn’t. Don’t know if racing really applies here…
I also know they can just do the vocal fold surgery while standing and skip the tie back for a somewhat improved airway. The surgeons I’ve interviewed want to do both procedures.
Thoughts, folks? I want to hear your experience. She’s tentatively scheduled next week with R&R at Saratoga.
My horse got a tie back and a cordectomy in November. Zero complications and he’s doing great now. He had to undergo general anesthesia because there was no way he would tolerate the standing procedure. I don’t regret getting it done
How old is your horse? Tie-back works best on young horses for lasting results.
She is 12 years old
I had a tie back done at Hagyard (KY) two years ago in my then 6yo draft cross. His paralysis had progressed and he was a “3 out of 4”.
His surgery was done under general anesthesia and the surgeon put in an extra stitch as he is a big horse and the surgeon wanted to ensure it would hold.
Recovery wasnt all that bad and he was back under saddle in six weeks.
The difference in his work tolerance was immediate and rather incredible. He can gallop around XC and hunt for hours and really doesn’t get tired. While he doesn’t have the scope and talent to move up the levels, he has the wind capacity to do anything I want.
Best decison ever!
Thank you. That’s very encouraging.
Has she been scoped? Your vet is in the best position to give you advice as to whether or not she needs tie back. It could be MANY different reasons why you are not making time. But if after diaganostics…my vet recommended tie back surgery. I wouldn’t hesitate.
Thank you. Yes she was scoped in 2013 and I decided to wait until it was an issue. And it’s taken all this time for us to get here where we can’t make time and I feel that she’s labored at this level. I had her scoped again the other day and it’s a grade 4, same as before. I’m going for it. But decided to investigate standing tie backs. The benefit there is obviously no general anesthesia and all the risks associated there. And also that the head is in an upright position, making the surgery easier to do correctly in some ways. Another benefit is that they do the follow up laser surgery on the vocal fold on the same surgery and not the following day. I’m not finished investigating. But I’m really leaning this way. My mare was laid down for DDF surgery 2 years ago and it was scary and injurious to her to wake and stand.
I don’t know your situation but personally I would look to improving your fittening routine before taking such a major step as surgery. Five minutes is not long for a TB to run. There is lot of literature about how to get a horse fit and generally it will be progressive, going up through the levels.
XC is never about being “perfect” and the horse should absolutely be able to look after itself over the terrain without the rider micromanaging every step. Do you push on or hold the horse back to ensure each fence is approached with show jumping precision? Part of the fittening program can include some timed canter work that will give you a good ‘clock’ in your head. If you have hills to ride up, short speedy uphill work can really help fitness.
Yeah that can be very scary. I’ve had one woken in a pool…and honestly, it still wasn’t perfect. Standing would be a lot less risky if it’s possible. Beyond that…most recover well, but there is still a risk of course. Then you will want to make sure that your feed her on the ground and we actually put their water low too. It’s made a huge difference for the horses that I’ve known…and grade 4 is quite significant.
Being on the racing, breeding side of TBs and train work with Sport TBs. I can say pretty much as fact there is little to nothing to be had. Comparing the outcome of tieback on a racehorse who has throat issues and a Sport horse, Eventer. A sport horse will never come near exerting itself to the level a racehorse has to. A sport horse will never “stress” the “procedure” to the level a racehorse will. I have had a fair amount of direct, hands on, paid the bills experience with a number of horses over the years. Lots of discussions with vets who specialize in this.
In this day and age a Standing Scope has limited value. A tread mill scope has limited value compared to a Dynamic Scope. A Dynamic Scope will give the owner and more importantly the surgeon detailed “information”. Visual information with exactly what is going on. Because horse is dealing with actual competition pressure. The rider/weight, tack/bit, footing, ambient weather conditions, at a WTC and galloping, flat, hills etc. Along with heat rate. All of this is recorded and can be taken to the clinic for further review with a team to discuss.
The cost of a Dynamic Scope is probably area specific. I get them done at the farm for around $500-600±. IMO and experience it should be done as a matter of course with every horse in training. At least once. IMO horses that compete at high demand levels. It should be done yearly as matter of course/management before or after competition season. The same I do with tendon scans, heart checks, etc. A trainer with a competition barn could easily get a “bulk rate” discount per horse.
My experience with a number of horses all at the time were either racing or young racehorses in training. The main criteria for a racehorse is the quality of the cartilage that “things” are being tied to. If it is on the thin, weak side of things there is a high chance the “ties” will break/cut through. But I am talking about a racehorse not a sport horse. I have had the procedure done regardless. But with the horses that the surgeons felt would be problematic for racing were re-schooled for sport. They had the highest confidence that it would never be an issue for horses used sport. Regardless of the intended discipline.
The procedure itself is fairly simple in the grand scheme of things surgical. That I have dealt with over the years. IMO hardly something to worry about. Plus it should be fairly inexpensive and things being equal in the world of vet expenses. As far as the use of general anesthesia and all the risks. The risks are minimal people tend to read all of the worst case scenarios and get spooked. But IME and I have a lot of it they are the exceptions not the norm. I have yet to be unlucky.
If people read the breeding “handbook” Blessed are the Broodmare and the very lengthy chapters on all the things that can go wrong. They would NEVER breed a mare, lol. Based on my experience foaling at times 30+ mares per season 95+% of the time things go fast, easy with no complications.
After care is simple and most horses can return to training pretty quickly. As far as feeding yes it is recommended to feed the horse on the ground. But this is a bit subjective and is not written in stone for all horses. Depends on things. I hang my feed and water buckets low as a matter of practice anyway. Never had to feed a post op horse that was healed up and back in training on the ground as a rule. I fed them on the ground when the returned from the clinic.
That’s the long of it. The short, IMO there is absolutely no reason not to have the procedure done. There is far more to gain for you and the horse then there are drawback. To each their own on this.
OP do everyone a favor and tag your thread Tie-back. So others can find it in the future. It only takes a few seconds don’t understand why people don’t do this as a matter of course and courtesy for others.
Willesdon thank you for your input and I think she’s pretty fit with a lot of hill work. But that’s a question I’m hoping to answer. Has anyone ridden a grade 4 horse to a level of fitness that allowed them to avoid surgery? She’s pretty fit and recovers fast. Just can’t push at the gallop for long, especially in hot weather. People that have responded on their personal experience so far have done the surgery for grade 3 horses. Which is enlightening for me. And makes me feel a little bad for not having done it sooner. I just worry terribly about complication. If I knew I could get her super fit and then she wouldn’t need the other 50 percent of air flow, I’d do it. But I feel like that’s what I have been doing for 5 years.
Gumtree, how? I’m using a phone to make posts. Can I go back and edit the OP to add the tag?
Gumtree, thank you for sharing Very much. I do plan to do it. I was told that I don’t need to do the dynamic scope if the standing scope is pretty straightforward. They didn’t have facilities to do it, only the equipment. Its a new location for R&R. So we were looking to borrow a place to gallop. But I will go after getting that done now that you’ve said that. It makes sense to me.
And I’ve seen just about every complication possible from tie back so that’s probably my hesitation. Friend’s horse. Seroma formed and grew so fast. Filled with pus foul enough to make the vet retch. Trach had to be inserted. After recovery period and return to work horse was scoped… tie back failed. So arytenoidectomy was required. 10 months after original surgery, horse still not right. And a tie back suture was found in trachea. This original surgery was done by one of the top people in the country at highly respected facility. Scary stuff. Fingers crossed all ok now. Found that suture less than a week ago.
Any experience with standing tie back? They are doing it at Auburn and I don’t know where else. R&R quotes 4500 for tie back with general anesthesia. Auburn quotes 1800 for standing.
I’m no vet, but my understanding is that once they get to Grade 4, your chances of a positive outcome are diminished versus doing it when they are a 2 or 3. Perhaps discuss that with the potential surgeon. My horse’s procedure at Hagyard was $2200. General Anesthesia and an extra night stay (Easter weekend).
Well, five years is long enough! Find a vet you trust.
Yes…most I’ve gotten quotes on and know about are 2,500-3,500 but with a grade 4, there maybe more complications with your horse so the quote may be higher. It is really something I rely on my vets.
Personally…I tend to have REALLY rotten luck with horse health…and yes, have had complications that are rare even with top notch care. Not good when top vets even tell you that all horse people think they have bad luck but you really do have bad luck…but even with my rotten luck, I’d probably still try it or alternatively…not run her at Prelim. I’m about to help some friends and pay for it in a younger horse as he is a good egg and will not sell without it. So worth a shot for him…but as with any of these kind of decisions…the devil is in the details and knowing your horse and having a good team of vets.
I’ve been told that the worse it is, the BETTER the prognosis - since total paralysis means the flap won’t be trying to close. and then I was told that it doesn’t matter what grade it is by most recent studies. However she was never a Grade 2 or 3. She scoped a Grade 4 from the beginning. As far as I know, the level of paralysis is there from the start. As they get older, it’s probably harder for them to compensate though. Like you, I’m no vet and I could be wrong, but it’s my understanding that the grade level doesn’t change over time. That’s a great price. Was that recent?
I regret not having the surgery. I had to retire my mare because of this and by that time she was to old for the surgery. If I could do it over again I would have done it.
