Toe out prospect... Run away??

[StellaBlue09]

Hello, I am looking at a mare who is slightly toed out in the left front. I’ve never had to make a decision based upon this before and looking for some advise. I do have calls into my vet and farrier and would do a full pre purchase if given the ok but looking for some real experience?

She’s 4 very very green broke, around 40 rides maybe? Looks completely sound, moves straight and seams to land straight on that foot. Feels sound and balanced as well. Actually very balanced naturally already. I would like her as a resale project. Breeder says her toe has gotten better since she was born and it does appear to only be the hoof, although I’m not a vet. Would you run away? I know it can lead to issues long term, would she not be a good candidate for 3 ft consistent? how much will it hurt my resale?

Any advise would be appreciated!!

[tuckawayfarm]

Can you post a picture? It might make a difference how “slight” it is.

I would want rads of that fetlock to be sure there were no early changes before buying, especially for resale. Once she is jumping around courses and staying sound, it probably won’t be a big deal to a buyer.

FWIW, my 21yo retired GP jumper toes out on the right front and is still 100% sound. I purchased her as a 7yo and didn’t think twice about it. She vetted clean and was showing consistently at 1.30m.

[password]

Wouldn’t worry us a bit, lots worse to worry about!

[StellaBlue09]

Owner is sending me a better picture to share. Im a firm believer that much worse could be wrong and no horse is perfect. BUT she’s not really started yet so I think its a crud shoot if she will stay sound as we progress… dilemma. …

[findeight]

Well, I WOULD worry a bit. There is a reason it is considered a fault based on 10 centuries of experience and observation and there is reason for concern if it’s not a match for the other leg.

Toed out wings in and can mean interfering or striking the other foreleg. If it’s not a match to the other foreleg? That adds to the issues. I like mine to match even if they are not perfect…this one sounds asymmetrical and would raise questions in my mind

[fordtraktor]

It doesn’t really bother me if it is mild. My new OTTB toes out a little with both fronts…he is 5 and completely sound after 22 starts. If it is extreme, of course, it would be a concern. But I have seen a lot of horses toe out a small bit and remain sound at high levels.

But findeight raises good points about the asymmetry…I think it might bother me if one leg was significantly different than the other. So…I would be cautiously optimistic. It sounds very mild.

[copper1]

I turned down what was otherwise a very nice horse because he turned out badly on the left front. I was concerned he would not hold up to the jumping we wanted to do. He has moved on to a successful career as a dressage horse and has been at it for awhile so I guess it didn’t affect him for that.

[Beethoven]

Interested in seeing a picture. My mare toes out significantly on her left front. She is pretty straight on the right front. I have to say that leg in of itself has never given us issue besides making sure her hoof stays balanced. That said she has had other lameness issues, but are they due to that leg and compensating? I have no real idea, but I would guess so. I rescued her out of a kill pen or I would of never gotten her. She is pretty extreme. I do have rads of that fetlock and below and they are gorgeous. I think her deviation is from the shoulder, so the whole leg is still in bony alignment and she can stand straight on the leg. I had always hoped it would right itself with work but it doesn’t. The right front was slightly toed out when I got her and has come completely straight as she widen in the chest and gained more muscle.

So, it depends, I guess it what I am saying.

Okay so not the best picture, but you can see its clearly toed out here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/39520_771758108593_4367802_n.jpg?lvh=1

another one: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/13336_685485883823_3092869_n.jpg

She does stand with the right toed out as well at times, but she moves straight through that leg and wings in with her left front, so to me that’s the true toed out leg.

So while she isn’t conformationally pretty. She sure can jump a nice jump (when all the stars align…haha) https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/199638_829325288503_5733176_n.jpg

Here you can see that she doesn’t land straight on that hoof either: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/6090_659982677453_2345779_n.jpg

She lands on the outside and rolls in.

Its a bit unfortunate that she is toed out. That limits what I would ever ask her to do for me. She also of course is not an easy ride. So, she is mine for life.

I am not sure I would ever set out to get a toed out horse, but that would depend on if it was already doing the job that I wanted it for and was staying sound then maybe. If it wasn’t, then that would make me think twice.

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

One of my boys toes out slightly… Learned after I bought him (sight unseen) it’s a trait in that line. He moves straight as a pin and is one of the loveliest movers I’ve ever seen in his breed. I’m not remotely worried about it and have actually decided to keep him for my personal show pony as he is that nice
I would say it depends on the severity of the turn out. I would buy a critter who turns out slightly but I would never buy one who toes in.
Good luck!

[findeight]

It would go over a little easier if this was farther along in training, jumping jumps to 3’ and staying sound. Go over a lot easier if OP was NOT planning to resell as a 3’ horse.

If you want to plan on keeping one for yourself? Take the chance if you want and the price reflects the question posed by the defect. But don’t start with something a future buyer will question in this market-especially if your timeline to resale is not long enough to establish long term soundness at desired height aimed for.

You got one that has been schooling, lessoning and showing 3’ for a solid year or more at 3’? It’s NBD. On a sale horse still on the maybe might prospect category? Not a plus.

[Halt_Near_X]

She’s four? She probably has some growing and filling out to do still, and often toeing out in a young horse will correct naturally as the chest cavity expands – as long as the toeing out comes from the whole leg and not from the knee down.

However, if she’s already filled out quite a bit and it’s only one leg, I’d be a little more concerned.

If you really like her, can you find someone with a lot of experience looking at young/growing horses to take a look at her and give you their take?

[Go_Fish]

Toeing out is something I’d avoid in a prospect, especially at 4. I don’t mind it in horses 2 or under, but by 3 or 4, I’d expect things to be straightening out.

If the toeing out is structural, I’d pass, especially on a young horse. I don’t like starting out with structural issues when I expect the horse to have a long career going forward. Straight legs on a prospect is something I won’t compromise on.

[doublesstable]

If you really like this mare, your vet is the one that you really should talk to after the vet does the PPE.

Some horses do change - I had a young horse that toed out and as his chest widened he straightened up. BUT, you need a farrier that understands that and doesn’t try to correct it at a young age and cause damage.

I also had a horse that toed in on the left front. He lived until he was 40. I have had straight legged, perfect conformation horses go lame… so it really depends on what the vet says and what the horse says. And I think anything you buy is a crap shoot.

[rosebudranch]

I’ve heard that a slight toe out can make a horse jump better, BUT, i believe when I was told that it wa smore of a toed out in both legs, while the two photos you have of her standing are HORRIBLE pictures to truly see how toed out she truly is, you need a straight on picture of her stood up square and straight on a hard flat surface. Some of my horses can look toed out depending on how they set their feet when they are grazing etc… I would go see the mare in person obviously and have someone stand her up and take a picture yourself… from straight on from ground level so you can truly see how it looks. But I agree… she is young, and without knowing how she will hold up to consistent jumping it is worrisome especially since you plan to resell… if it were for a personal horse, I’d have no reserves about telling you to go for it if her radiographs are good etc (and she does jump quite well!). But, since you are having such reserves about the toe out issue… think what someone else may think about it before purchasing her from you when you go to sell her… and what if she doesnt hold up… you are out your time, money, and still have to find a home for her if she can’t hold up to the jumping so you may get stuck with her… Just the view from resale prospective.

[StellaBlue09]

This is exactly my concern. I’m glad I’m not the only one saying it out loud. I do understand that no horse is prefect - BUT when purchasing for the idea of resale i’de prefer to not see a problem before we even get to the pre purchase. Not sure if it’s worth the money to x-ray that leg or if I should just move on.

I feel like if I x ray it and it turns up clean I still will be limiting my potential buyers until she has proven herself at that level - and I’de rather not put $20,000 into “proving” not even knowing if she will stay sound.

Just bummed, I really adored her - she’s the first one I have seen that I’ve felt that way about - and she’s probably #40 on the hunt. But I think on to the next is the smart thing… Thanks for posting!

[StellaBlue09]

She is 4 - and the breeder says it has increased significantly since she was a foal - I think it’s probably where it’s going to stay - her chest seams filled out - she’s going to be 5 in may. Her hind end is a little high but other than that she just looks to lack muscle, not fill, if that makes sense.

[fordtraktor]

If you are going to put $20k in her I can definitely see your hesitation. For OTTB prices I’m a lot more flexible but that’s a lot of money for crooked legs.

[horsepoor]

I’m super risk adverse, but a slight toe out would not concern me much. But one person’s idea of slight might be different than another, so seeing the actual horse would be helpful. I’d sure rather have toed out than in. Heck, a friend had a horse that looked like Fred Flintstone up front and that one showed into his teens, was sound during that time, and won a lot in good company. Not that I would have ever bought him after seeing those legs, but used to crack me up to see him standing like that, looking like some cartoon horse, then go win the hack and over fences because he moved and jumped so well.

But without seeing the actual horse and legs in question, I’m sure not prepared to say yay or nay and it always amuses me when people are.

[moonriverfarm]

My hunter has ballerina legs aka both fronts turn out and he has never had an issue.

[StellaBlue09]

Do you thing having both turn out would be better than having one?