Seems like I’m posting more and more frequently 
I have been preached to about how my feet should always be parallel to the horses face (when going forward). That was when I rode hunter jumper for the nearer side of 4 years. Now I am riding hunter under saddle and may dabble a bit in western pleasure and had my first in the saddle lessons today. (My previous lessons had been working on showmanship. ) My trainer told me that the foot position is way different in HUS than HJ. He said that my toes need stay pointed… out. I’m not necessarily object to this, but does anyone know why this is different? Also, what are some exercises I can do help my feet stay in this “chicken foot” position and to help strengthen my leg so it’s easier to have effective aids with my toes out.
Is this a QH breed show thing? They do a lot of things that don’t translate to regular h/j.
What is the reason given for toes out?
I have no suggestions for how you go back to that after learning toes forward.
I just cliniced with a well respected German dressage trainer who told me to shorten my stirrup and turn my toe out to better use my leg. I wonder if the pendulum is swinging back away from the parallel foot?
Well, that’d be great news if toes out were to be desired as that’s my natural stance and tendency on a horse! However, I don’t like how it looks (especially in dressage) and I don’t think it’s proper. I’ve also never had a trainer encourage it. I don’t understand why they would.
@jonem004 I am somewhat curious about this well respected German dressage trainer. Usually in dressage we want to do the opposite; have a long draping leg that uses calf pressure not so much heel/foot aids. However I was not there and don’t know what exactly the instructor was trying to accomplish, but I’ve just never heard of a dressage instructor taking that approach or saying toes out. Unless you have a really exaggerated toe in or something.
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All I know is that I’ve been battling toe out tendencies my whole life mostly due to tightness in my hips and it’s a real conscious effort! All I know is that it’s not encouraged in my neck of the woods.
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Well, we go through a number of leg positions in dressage before we get to our optimum long stirrup length.
If we try for a long stirrup before our leg has stretched, we can end up searching for the stirrups and maybe with a weaker looser leg.
I bet this clinician was trying to fix a problem he saw at that moment, and wanted to put the stirrups up and give you a tighter more effective more “jumper” leg. Because the important thing is to have effective aids.
I bet if you went back to.him after s year he would get you to lengthen the stirrups again!
I have a long-standing habit of riding (H/J) toes-straight-almost-toes-in. I was never instructed that this was proper - I was always taught that toes slightly out is usually ideal for getting the whole lower leg around the horse, depending on rider conformation - and I can feel this when I ride and continually remind myself to toe out. Over the years toes-straight has occasionally caused strain in my feet and shins. I don’t often get harassed about it by coaches, but then again, I was never a serious equitation competitor.
The majority of high-profile hunter seat equitation coaches (GH Morris, Anna Mullin, etc) all call for toes-slightly-out, and the pics on the covers of and in their books show the same.
Thank you! I have a feeling it felt like my toes were out a lot more than they actually were because I’m not used to it. Next time I ride someone will have to take pictures of me so I can see. Thanks for the input!
My understanding is that in hunters and equitation, you want to wrap your lower leg around that horse, rather than let it hang straight down. That means the leg rotates out slightly and the back of the calf is what ultimately ends up touching the horse. The toes will rotate out with the rest of the leg.
The only riders I know who really try to keep their toes pointed forward are dressage riders, and people riding horses who are explosive to the leg.
Pictures always help:
https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/training/geometry-rider-angles-30010
The driving factor is where your toe needs to be in order to get maximum contact of your inside calf with the horse’s side. And this is going to be influenced by your anatomy.
It’s a spectrum, not a single correct position. Point your toes at the girth and your leg comes off and your knee pinches in. Turn your toes way out to the side and your leg rolls around to put the back of your calf against the horse’s side, which pulls your knee away from the saddle. You need to find the middle ground that puts your leg in the proper position, which, for most people, is a little bit toe out.
I’m guilty.
I have clients who don’t ride nearly as much as I do, and don’t have the leg strength that I do. For horses that take advantage of that, indeed I ask him to, in a small degree, turn their toe out and use the strongest part of their leg and spur. Almost always, initially I get a wide-eyed look 
But when horsey finally decides to get forward, they realize it’s a tool in their box they can use or not use.
It felt like I was doing the 3. Picture. But again, it may just be because I’m not used to it. I will be getting pics so you guys can see whatvhe is having me do
As part of the clinic he gave a lecture on biomechanics of the horse and rider. For the rider bit he talked about how the super straight leg (length of stirrup and direction of knee/toe) was a product of the Spanish Riding School. That position is fine if you’re riding a Lipizzaner who’s back hardly moves in the trot, but in these big gaited warmbloods we’re riding now most people can’t sit the trot well without turning their toe out a bit and so relaxing their hip.
He also went over a bunch of exercises and stretching with people he’s worked with more (balimo chair and on a yoga mat). It seemed to make some nice improvements to a couple of riders sitting trot.
The idea was certainly news to me as well. I feel like I’ve spent most of my life stretching my hips out to get the leg I have now! Like any clinician, I’ll take this information in and take it as knowledge instead of gospel. I’m not riding particularly big gaits so it’s not pressing for me.
Maybe, but he talked about it in his lecture on biomechanics before hand and addressed how it’s a departure from the traditional thinking on the leg.
I’m not offended because my mare is tiny and a shorter stirrup actually puts my calf/spur closer to her side. I just ride with them longer because I don’t want to loose the progress I’ve made stretching my hips out.
Like any clinician, I’ll take it in with a grain of salt. Just the first time I’ve heard the idea that it might be ok to turn your toe/knee out a bit and that sounded positively revolutionary!
With “toes-out” I often notice that I feel like I am pointing my toes straight out at both sides of the arena, but when I look at video and they are just barely past parallel to my horse’s side. For me, it’s just one of those cues/areas where my proprioception doesn’t seem to be very accurate at all!
Great article by the way, very useful to me!
Interesting, maybe this will catch on or maybe this is just his pet theory.
I totally agree that shorter stirrups help on a bigger moving horse, and that for many of us the ideal length is probably the length you’d hack out in a jump saddle. And shorter stirrups are way better than flopping around.
I think that the shorter the stirrups the more the toes turn out and the back of the calves are on the horse. Also in two point your toes tend to turn out. I alternate between a jump and a dressage saddle and can feel this.
On the other hand I am riding a couple of big bodied horses with smooth gaits, and I always feel my stirrups and leg are longer than they look in the dressage saddle! Also that my toes are completely forward when they aren’t.
To have an effective and strong leg, you need to have a relaxed knee and your calf on your horse. This is where your muscle is on your leg, down the backs of your legs, not down the insides of your legs. Your knee should be soft, and loose on the saddle, not pointing straight forward. Your toes pointed out, not straight forward. Straight forward gives you no strength in your leg. Pointed outwards, knee soft and not gripping the saddle, gives you a leg position that you can use effectively. Your calf is in constant communication with your horse’s side, giving cues, and letting the horse know that you are still there, still “with” him. IMO, no difference between HUS and HS and hunters and jumpers… effective is effective, and ineffective and insecure is never helpful. If someone has been telling you that toes should be pointed straight forwards, good thing that you have a new instructor now. If you are instead talking “dressage”, well, who knows what is going on in that world these days. They are crazy people. Perhaps their toes are pointing straight forward these days. They have those great big saddles with those deep seats (probably outfitted with seat belts to keep them mounted), so perhaps they are OK with a weak, floppy and ineffective leg. If you wish to jump, don’t ride like a dressage rider.
This makes so much sense! What you said paired with the article
@NoSuchPerson linked has made it so much clearer! Thanks to everyone who responded. I looked back at a few riding videos from the past few yesrs and did notice that my leg seemed unstable now that I’m looking for it. I will for sure work on a better leg. (It is probably also why I tended to struggle with upward transition)
again, thanks to everyone who responded!
