Tongue over bit- dangerous??

My 12.2 driving donkey is 5 years old and she has been in a full harness for 18 months, driving for almost one year. I use a low port Liverpool bit with her and she always, always, always puts her tongue over the bit. She does not shake her head or chew on the bit. I can stop, remove the bridle, put it back on, make sure the tongue is under the bit. Drive forward 100’ and check her mouth and sure enough, the tongue is over the bit.

I’ve never dealt with this with any of my riding horses. I do not show my donkey. So, is this habit dangerous? Will it cost me control- braking ability- of her mouth?

I would value any insight.

[B]
SLW ~ a few ideas

  1. Not always dangerous though can be - depends on your horse / donkey

  2. Certainly limits turning : directions in some instances = general navigation

  3. Consider a broken half cheek driving snaffle / big ring … Not smooth … Depends on your donkey .

  4. Use the ‘least’ bit but one that still offers control ~ of course .

  5. There are many bit options in driving snaffles - the most controlling being … Fishback or Bicycle Chain - but those are used with tougher control cases generally.

  6. To start ‘google’ LaSalle Harness Company RI ~ browse their driving bits.

  7. Ask the hunt member who rides the mule what is in that mule’s mouth

  8. Try to borrow a bit or two to try … Before purchasing.

    • One can always ‘tie the tongue’ - shoestring method but that is a technique that can be ‘bad’ without knowledge and EXPERIENCE.
  9. What size Liverpool are you currently using ?

  10. I have copious driving bits … horses and hackneys …perhaps one or thirty of my bits could find a good new home with you ?

  11. I would love to help you out if I can

  12. Let’s see what other tips you gather here on your thread .

  13. I have never worked with / driven a donkey so a donkey driver would be a better source perhaps ?!?

  14. Let me know what size you’re looking for - and while I’m swamped right now … I would be glad to drop some bits ( if I find some that might work) at a convenient location.

  • ETA `` this post is IMHO … fellow drivers need not ‘snark’ at me please and thank you ~ IMHO Coth has become slightly [/B]:eek:“toxic” perhaps because of the election season :confused: nevertheless my above post has not one mention of the “T” nor “H” words :lol::winkgrin:

My TB does this with a straight bar bit (I was trying one to address his chewing.) I had to move him to a jointed bit adjusted high in his mouth. It was a dangerous habit with him because the feel of the bit on his bars made him uncomfortable and he would toss his head and bolt from this discomfort, and since the pain was coming from his mouth I could not address that with the reins without making it worse. I just sat there and talked to him until he calmed down which is fairly nerve wracking on a bolting horse. I can imagine driving your options could be even more limited. Some horses don’t really seem to care but you don’t want to find our yours minds the hard way!

try a bit holder -http://wilsontack.com/inc/sdetail/2868/2915 or what we call a tongue depressor -
http://wilsontack.com/inc/sdetail/2868/2917

I wouldn’t recommend a tongue tie unless you are truly familiar with applying and adjusting it and would not recommend any kind other than leather for a regular driving animal.

Thank you all so much for the insight and ideas on this issue.

ZuZu- I use a 4.75" low port, 2 slot Liverpool bit with a properly fitted curb chain. I did have the rein on the first slot but moved it to the lower slot after one time when my donkey blew through the bit for 3 or 4 strides after being startled by a horse trotting up behind her. I did work on the issue of “out of sight noise behind her” and continue to school noises to make her solid.
Also, there isn’t a hunt member who uses a mule but we did have a guest out there hunting one over the winter. Hers was a lovely, lovely mule! I’ll back through photos to see what she used.

I do feel like I need to keep a leverage bit so that the power is there if I need it. While her mouth is tapered to medium pony size the jowls and size of her head are a cob which creates a power house. I also so use voice and always school- whoa, wait & easy. Those are my first ques and she gives me the correct answer when given a verbal que. ZuZu- totally agree about staying soft in the mouth and use the least amount of pressue needed to get a response.

Also, my donkey is in no way a sterotypical Eeyore doneky. :slight_smile: She has a 5 mph walk- steady, forward and eager. Think of a lady in a big shopping mall. She has just walked into a department store at one end and glances in her purse and sees that she left her wallet on the counter of the other big department store, clear at the other end of the mall. She turns and walks with purpose and authority back to the store. That is how my donkey walks. She also trots lovely!!

At this point my donkey has never reacted badly to the bit sitting directly on the bars of her lower jaw. Nothing like Fordtraktor dealt with which would be nerve wracking. That is what puzzled me the other evening as I kept dinking with the bit.

I think the tongue depresser Skpacer would worth a try as long as it doesn’t take up too much space in her already small mouth.

When my pony was going through this phase the trainer tightened his noseband for a while. She said if it did not help, he’d go in a flash for a while. He stopped with the tighter noseband.

They drive teams of mules in ‘mule bits’ which are also used on other breeds that (show in curbs and or Liverpool bits) when not showing.

A ‘mule bit’ is a big ring snaffle … the mouthpiece is a bicycle chain.

There are many mouthpiece options both on Liverpools, curbs and half cheek driving snaffles.

There is leverage control but also mouthpiece control …depending on how the animal wears the bit.

I have a Liverpool with a slow twist mouthpiece as well as a low port wrapped in copper wire as well as smooth low port Liverpool. * used in the show ring

I guarantee a half cheek driving snaffle with either a fishback or bicycle chain or single twisted wire or double twisted wire will prevent any ‘out of control’ …or running through the bit/ your hands.

I know nothing about donkeys but about mules (driving) and their bits.

The ASB/ Morgans do not use their curbs for driving / jogging their horses ~ snaffle and overcheck bit … Curbs when ridden … ( there are exceptions ).

The hackney people do not use their Liverpools when exercising/ jogging their ponies all the time.

They generally work in snaffles and running martingales under saddle.
They generally work in a half cheek driving snaffle and overcheck bit when jogging (hitched).

I have never worked my hackneys daily in a Liverpool / rather my half cheek snaffles *with mouthpiece chosen according to the ‘hotness’ level has been safe whether in the indoor…outdoor or through the woods .
Blinkers on the bridle also offer ‘power brakes’ & ‘power steering’.

Again I know nothing about donkeys - just trying to help.

  • horses and ponies can and do often get their tongues over snaffles too.
    Sometimes an animal will require a tongue tie when being ridden or driven • regardless of the bit • for the safety of both the rider/ driver and animal.

Good Luck ~ with a little experimenting you’ll find your answer .

on my phone - it’s hot & bugs ! there are likely many errors in this post … Please excuse .

With our Standardbreds we tie the tongue. I use a standard Knee High stocking. Wet it in the water bucket, get your horses tongue I put the stocking under the tongue then cross over the top, allow the horse to put tongue back in the mouth and tie under the chin. NOT TOO TIGHT. but just enough to keep the tongue in place.

However I would not recommend tying the tongue for an extended amount of time. The MAX time one of our horses wear the tongue tie is 15-20 min during their workout.

Like mentioned above, you could try a dropped, figure eight, or flash noseband first before tying the tongue.

If she hasn’t reacted badly to the bit with tongue over, she probably is not going to have a problem with wearing her bit this way. Does she steer as directed? Is she resistant to your rein signals with tongue over? Doesn’t sound excited about it, which is good. Might be looking for a rest stop while you fix things!

I have heard of that rubber port working with some animals, but not always helpful with that tongue over issue.

I have never had success with tight nosebands, raising the bit really high in the mouth. I am telling you he was grinning like a Movie Star, but still got his tongue over the bit!! Using tight nosebands of any sort, raised high bits, just prevent animals from getting tongue BACK under the mouthpiece to self-fix the problem, in our experiences with various animals.

We now leave bit fitted a little lower in the mouth, horse or donkey is NOT smiling when his bridle is on. Noseband is fitted correctly, you can get a couple fingers under when ready to drive. If horse gets tongue over, we just keep going. You can’t stop in a class, any competition, to fix the bridle anyway. So drive like you haven’t noticed a problem, horse or donkey gets no reward for tongue over bit, no stop, no rest. Often they will fix the problem themselves, if bit isn’t fitted up tight.

One of ours used to do that, had learned the trick got him a break with other drivers and owners! I fixed his tongue 5 times in a very short time span, not even getting back into vehicle as the groom, before he had his tongue over the bit again! Driver said " We are done fixing that problem, he can wear the bit like that and keep on working." So no more breaks or fixing, horse had his tongue back under when he got unharnessed in the barn! Every now and then he would “wave his tongue” at us to say it was over the bit, “Help Me!” But we never stopped to fix it again, so eventually he quit doing it. We did get asked “WHAT is he doing?” by spectators sometimes. We said he is waving at the audience!!

I would NOT use what are popularly called “Mule Bits” with the chain mouthpieces. Doesn’t matter what kind of chain, they are cruel and abusive bits, for strong-arming large, untrained animals in the past. You can easily cut the tongue, bars, with those terrible types of bits. Unless your donkey suddenly turned into some kind of idiot, there should not be a need for any bit like that.

Tongue tying is iffy, I have seen horses who lost their tongue due to lack of circulation with tie on too long, not done correctly. I wouldn’t do it to any of mine. It is in the “gadget” type of fix. When gadget is off, tongue is not fixed. As BLBSTBLS said, hers is on for VERY short time, not expecting it to train/fix horse not to get his tongue over, just to prevent the problem.

Donkey should be able to go on a bit like a horse, but will naturally be slower moving most of the time. She should be light, responsive, accepting of the bit, when trained correctly. Donkeys are NOT stupid or insensitive, though too many people treat them that way. They are just slower decision makers, need to trust you, to be your good driving animals. Just a whole different mind than horses.

You have to be sure to get a wide enough bit, even for short donkey, since their skulls are not “refined”. Could even need a 6" bit, to make her comfortable in fit for not pinching her teeth against skin. Measure her mouth to learn her correct size, before purchasing a bit for her. Farrier might be able to flare out the reach part, where bridle buckles in, to prevent pinching above the mouthpiece. We did that flared out on bit for some Fjord horses, very wide at the molar area.

I always get some kind of a port in a curb bit, arch, mullen, low or regular port, for tongue relief when reins are used. Fat tongue, low upper palate, can make mouth crowded with a jointed bit poking upward or straight bar pinching down on the tongue as reins are used.

Idea 1: is to get some bit latex, wrap where bit lays on her bars for cushion. A narrow wrap or two on mouthpiece for if she persists in putting her tongue over mouthpiece. At least her bars are then protected some, not metal on bone, while driving. They do spit a lot when latex is new on the bit. Everyone will think she is “using the bit well” seeing the spit! Ha Ha

Idea 2: is dried fruit leathers, wrapped on the mouthpiece then squeezed tight so it sticks on, for her to enjoy after being bridled. She might like rubbing the fruit with her tongue, help keep tongue under to enjoy the flavor better. Fruit lasts about 15 minutes before swallowed or licked off, but might be helpful to keep tongue under. She might drool in color too! Ours like Strawberry best, but like all flavors. Fruit Rollups, Fruit by the Foot, are both sold in stores and work well for this.

Keep us posted on your progress with her.

I just want to start off saying I’ve never driven a donkey so I don’t know if they differ from ponies or not in that aspect.

I do have 13h ponies and 14h ponies and they have all at one point got thier tounges over the bits at some point.

They have all been good once that happened but I do notice that they hold thier heads lower and steering is lost a bit, but I’ve not had a bad reaction. Like goodhors, we dont tighten the nosebands or put the bit up a hole as I find that they can still do it, no matter what. If they can put it over the bit, they can put it back under the bit, but once its over they tend to loose focus, so we try to prevent it from happening. We have used a rubber tounge layer put on an arch mouthpiece and it has worked very well for our 13h pony.

The smaller guys tend to have very small mouths (4.5" bits) and larger tounges with very little room in there. Of all the bits I’ve tried, the high arch with a tounge layer worked great for my guy. I have also used the latex, which is great for my larger ponies, but I found that it makes the bar quite thick and it was hard for him to close his mouth, even with just one wrap. Thier mouths are very small and its hard to find a nice small pony bit!

[QUOTE=DiamondJubilee;8708515]
The smaller guys tend to have very small mouths (4.5" bits) and larger tounges with very little room in there. Of all the bits I’ve tried, the high arch with a tounge layer worked great for my guy. I have also used the latex, which is great for my larger ponies, but I found that it makes the bar quite thick and it was hard for him to close his mouth, even with just one wrap. Thier mouths are very small and its hard to find a nice small pony bit![/QUOTE]

A good thing to mention about the latex getting too thick for a small animal’s mouth.

Bits do come in various mouthpiece diameters, so consider that with small mouth on your equine.

I do pull my latex very hard, stretch it thin, while making that wrap on the mouthpiece. Hard stretch seems to aid in sticking it to itself better in the wrap too. Latex will thin out considerable with stretching, over just wrapping it unstretched. So trying to use stretched thin latex, with only a couple wraps on mouthpiece beside the port, still might fit in the mouth comfortably. Comfort over bars while giving the bars of mouth some cushion if donkey won’t keep her tongue under to lift the bit a little. I do cut the latex into a narrow strip for wrapping, and it will narrow up more with hard stretching. This leaves the bit center port, arch, uncovered so animal has tongue room and maybe is not so crowded in that little mouth.

Thank you all again for such wonderful input and sharing experiences. It helps me so much!

The tongue over the bit has not been an issue to date with my driving donkey. She is light, responsive in the mouth and turns softly. One day last week as I was driving her I started pondering “am I avoiding a known issue here” which led me to this board to ask my question.

When I started her I used my 5" horse bits and there was too much bit on either side of her lips so I purchased a 4.75" bit and it fits the width of her mouth perfectly.

The bit holder or latex might be worth schooling her with to see if that helps. I would have never thought to try them!

I would get a bit with more tongue relief. I also would never take bridle off to correct problem while you are hitched. VERY dangerous. Double check that the bit it in the proper place. Sometimes when they get nervous tongue will go over. I don’t like tightening the cavason for this issue but figure out what the problem is. If tongue was over bit when he ran through bit it won’t matter rein setting. You don’t have control when tongue is over