Hi all, a client’s horse has recently started jaw crossing and sticking his tongue out. It hangs out pretty badly for a moment or two despite a flash. She doesn’t want to have to crank anything super tight. Horse only seems to do it when you have to take a firmer contact to make a correction/half halt or downward. Sometimes he just resists and sticks it out. I’ve sat in the horse, but we really don’t get along and she doesn’t want to put him in training. Thorough vet work has been done and have teeth, saddle fit etc. . Any other suggestions?
Do you know offhand what bit he goes in?
Is the firmer contact that he is resisting new?
Is it possible that there is an infection in a tooth that didn’t show up on a standard full dental, but might with rads?
Tongue hanging out is almost exclusively a sign of tension – if no crazy bit is being used.
Usually a sign of tension because of a lameness. SI, stifle, hock…
Sometimes it is the first sign of a brewing soft tissue injury behind.
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IF he is in a three piece snaffle he may be objecting to the greater tongue pressure. If so could she try a single-jointed snaffle? Most barns seem to have at least one floating around.
He’s in a double jointed eggbutt. I’ll tell her to try my plain copper dee this evening. It could be SI with this horse. Perhaps a second opinion is warranted…
Another possibility is that the horse is resistant in coming through, which of course also be caused by pain somewhere as @beowulf described
Agree that the horse may be happier in a simple 2 piece snaffle that puts less pressure on the tongue. Also Myler makes a tongue relief snaffle that gives the tongue plenty of room.
I bought a jumper who waved his tongue out of the right side of his mouth. Getting him to take a better connection through the right side of his body and to the bit fixed the problem.
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Closing the mouth with a flash etc never works with these horses, so don’t go that way. IME it only makes them worse. Sometimes they like a bit that doesn’t press on the tongue in the same way.
You might experiment with her using less rein in the downwards, trying those transitions on a circle and/or with a bend, and playing with half-halts using an alternate releasing rein - IE, you keep contact with one rein, and push the other hand forward a few inches, so if the horse is pulling he’s suddenly uncomfortable with uneven support from the bit. It works especially well at the canter.
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Well, I did clinics with a Baroque horse who habitually stuck his tongue out. The owner trained him to FEI but didn’t/couldn’t show him because of the tongue. The horse had excellent vet care and training with his newer rider (rider was an FEI rider and our clinician was GP on many horses). The tongue seemed to be a habit he developed. Connection wasn’t this horse’s problem, he could happily perform FEI movements with his tongue out the side of his mouth, sitting nicely behind@=!
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i would suspect that it is the quality of the connection “when you have to take a firmer contact to make a correction/half halt or downward”. I suggest the rider try going on the longe, minus reins, and practice half halts and transitions.
All of these can be ridden without reins. and they will perforce help the rider into lighter transitions, and halts.
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I’ve seen this with a couple of Baroque horses as well, not saying it’s a Baroque horse thing, just adding data points.
It’s no fun for anyone when a judge is reluctantly giving out 5 after 5 because of seeing the tongue, from both sides. The last time I saw this, the judge really tried to find opportunities to NOT see the tongue but said something like “it’s hard to ignore when it’s got a tan line.”
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So I watched her ride him today. Unless she has zero contact and is letting the horse go on a loose rein, he is sticking his tongue out. It seems almost like a long slow lick where the horse leaves his tongue out for a bit. This a relatively new problem and is progressively getting worse. I know she works with a good dressage instructor and they have tried many things to no avail. It just seems to be getting worse. Stifles just got injected. She asked me for my opinion and, honestly, it It’s beyond me at this point. Hence my asking here. I’ve never sat in the horse, but I’d assume it’s tension in the lower back if I had to guess. She did order a comfitech bridle to see if that helps. I’m a jumper person, so I would have tried the horse in a hackamore to give it a break and see how things went. She’s straight dressage and doesn’t want to go that route.
Loose rein, does not equal quality connection… For some horses it really is hard to ride them as they’d like. Less, less, less is more
Finding a soft following hand can be very difficult, and so much depends on the ridr’s use of body, and personal self carriage.
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We have several jumpers in our barn including my own mare that came with contact/jaw issues and/or anxiety caused by previous bad riding. The dressage coach we cross-train with recommended the Neue Schule Verbinded loose ring snaffle https://nsbits.com/product/verbindend/ combined with a crescent (aka lever) noseband. https://www.nunnfiner.com/Nunn-Finer-Original-Lever-Noseband-p/280.htm
This combination has worked wonders both for my mare and one of the geldings in the barn. Both strong, but very sensitive horses.
As I understand it, the lever noseband prevents them from crossing the jaw without applying as much pressure to sensitive areas on the nose and chin the way a tight flash noseband can. The lever noseband is dressage legal in Canada, not sure about in the US.
If this horse went fine for this rider without the tongue previously, I’d strongly suspect a physical issue over a rider issue. Arthritis in the neck/poll/TMJ would be high on my suspect list.
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That noseband looks suspiciously like a hackamore.
She’s decided to have a lameness specialist look at the horse. She had me watch her lunge him last night. (And he does the tongue thing on the lunge too) and to me he doesn’t look fluid in the low back/SI.
I don’t think the lever noseband looks like a hackamore. No reins attach to it. It looks like a mix between a dropped and micklem with metal sides to make it a bit stronger?
Is this horse up to date on teeth floats? I have a young horse that was opening his mouth and tongue lolling. I thought it was either beause he was avoiding the bit or I was being naggy but when he had his teeth done it turned out that he had an ulcer from the sharp teeth in the back. He will still open his mouth here and there but for the most part - that tongue lolling went away. It’s just a thought.
I’m a recovering eventer transitioning to dressage only. I have a lovely OTTB mare that would score well except she’s gecko-like with her tongue.
You described exactly what needs to be fixed: your friend’s horse is crossing it’s jaw. Fix that and tongue will stay in. Jaw may be crossing because horse isn’t entirely straight, possibly due to physical issue, or it could be because the rider has lost her straightness and is skewing things slightly.
I mention all this because it is what fixes my mare’s problem. I have to be dead even nose to heels (although I can use my leg, seat and hands. I just have to not tip my body at all.). I have to maintain a soft but firm contact, sometimes lifting my right hand about two inches (without pulling back) as a correction because she sticks her tongue out left. This helps “break the habit”. And I have to be sure that she is straight/ evenly bent on a curve. No throwing hips in, shoulder out or anything.
And for what it’s worth, her bit is a ported mullen mouth snaffle. It’s a tough habit to overcome, but it can be done and generally remains a work in progress.
