Too much protein for senior horse?

[Obsidian_Fire]

29 y/o retired broodmare, Arab. She has no molars, but has front teeth.

Owner finally quit trying to feed her hay and went to cubes. BUT. This is her current diet: Alfalfa cubes and Allegra Senior, twice a day. Soaked. The Senior is 14% protein, on top of the cubes.

I have a couple worries here. One is, when I am picking her poo, what I see is the hay cube pieces are coming out the same size they went in. To my mind, that means that she’s not really getting the nutrition from them she should be. Does a horses’ digestive system break down foods that are not chewed?

I am also concerned she’s getting way too much protein.

I am considering a conversation with the owner about using pellets - preferably timothy or orchard - instead of cubes. Am hoping to push for a more balanced diet, as well as one that’s more kidney-friendly.

Thoughts?

[Simkie]

Older horses have a higher protein requirement because they’re less efficient at processing protein. Higher protein isn’t a problem for the kidneys unless they’re already in trouble.

If pieces are coming through intact it sounds like the cubes aren’t being soaked enough.

It’s better for horses on bucket feed to be fed more than twice a day. Can she get lunch and a meal before bed?

[Bluey]

That ^

Excess protein will be mostly wasted in urine, not bother the horse, like extra energy in the form of carbohydrates may.

I too would think the food is not soaked enough if the pieces are coming thru whole?
Which is the purpose of soaking, to make it all a mush that won’t have pieces.

More meals always help any horse, any time.

Many here with horses with dental problems, mostly very aged ones, keep some kind of free choice very soft and pretty alfalfa hay out for those horses all the time, for them to entertain themselves and quid at their heart’s content.
They get something out of that also, just not much, they still supplement with a soaked senior feed.

You do have to watch that they don’t leave what you do want them to consume, that senior feed, if they think they are getting full enough on the free choice food, but really are not any more.

When feeding, especially those with problems, you have to keep watching and trying all kinds of ways to get them the nutrition they need, any way you can manage, as you are doing.

[RAyers]

Like you are doing, I use soaked senior complete feeds (literally almost a soup) as a way to keep the calories coming to an older horse. They slurped their meals. As stated the hay is only there for their contentment. You can not overfeed an older horse. They need as many calories as possible.

Get rid of cubes, given that horses (as well as man) use the molars to crush and a grind the food as first initial digestion. If the horse has no molars, they can not break the cubes. They need to be super soaked.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Everything is thoroughly soaked - I am in charge of prepping her feed and I also do the night feed, so I am very vigilant. She can’t chew, if it’s small enough to be swallowed whole, that’s how it is. She quids everything, even grass, if it isn’t small enough to just swallow.

Her owner, who’s also my BO, is just not … I dunno… I am doing the best I can with what she’s willing to provide and hoping it doesn’t make a problem.
The mare goes out with mine, as a companion, so I have switched my mares feed up so that she gets her alfalfa outside and she shares it with this little mare - she eats the leaves. So senior mare does get some daytime feed. I am also slipping her some of my own pellets, but frankly that’s not my responsibility! But what I’ve noticed is that adding pellets (soaked to a mash) has finally put some weight on her. Cubes + senior alone were not doing it.

She eats everything I put out and begs for more. Since her weight is finally at a reasonable spot, this has lessened somewhat.

@Bluey you are right about having something out to just chew on and “quid to their hearts content”. That’s one thing bothering me about overnight. Miss mare scarfs a HUGE bucket of feed down in short order and then is standing all night with nothing to do. For awhile the BO was buying a bale of alfalfa from me (because it’s 3rd cut that is very leafy) but then complained it was too expensive… even tho little mare was scarfing every leaf she could find and the remaining stem was fed to another of her horses, so there was no waste.

At some point I need to have this conversation with owner, but right now I need to gather my thoughts and information.

[Simkie]

If everything is thoroughly soaked, there are no PIECES to come through. If there are solid pieces in the mash to come through whole, then it’s not thoroughly soaked.

I’d tell the owner to pay for the pellets you’re supplementing, soak the feed all the way down, and leave it at that.

[downen]

OF, the mare is so lucky to have someone looking out for her!

I have an almost 40-something gelding, so I’ll share what I do for him. He gets a “soup” 2X a day with TC Senior, ground flax, and TC30 ration balancer, plus his supplements (Previcoxx, Bute Less, Recovery EQ). In addition, he gets a mush made of 2-3 scoops Alfalfa pellets, 1 scoop Timothy pellets, and 1 scoop TC Senior. I pour hot water over it and let is soak. We are in the Midwest, and my hubby made an insulated bucket holder out of a muck tub to keep it from freezing. In addition, I give him 1-2 flakes of the Standlee compressed premium Alfalfa in a super-small hole hay net (he mainly eats the powdery fallout), which keeps him busy and occupied between feedings. Interestingly enough, even though he’s lost a bunch of teeth, he stopped quidding and is eating more regular hay after a molar abcessed and fell out last fall.

I should add that he’s pastured separately from my other two geldings. The TB chases him too much, and this way I don’t have to worry about the old guy getting his food.

He’s fat and happy, and last night in -20 degrees he was warm and content with no blanket. My vet is amazed at how well he’s doing every time he sees him; apparently it’s commonly accepted that old horses are thin. I had worries about the protein aspect as well, but my vet assured me his diet is perfectly appropriate for his age.

Best of luck with the mare!

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I don’t know if you’re using hot water or cold water for soaking, but really piping hot water will break down the alfalfa pellets/cubes more quickly and completely than cold water. I use pelleted alfalfa, not cubes. The core of the cubes wouldn’t dissolve for me, unless left to soak in a lot of water for an extended period of time (over an hour). So while the outside of the cube may seems really mushy, my guess is that the core pieces are what you are seeing in her poop. See if the owner won’t switch to pellets. They dissolve completely in about 15/20 minutes in hot water, even when its as cold as it is right now (16° this AM here).

And good on you for looking after this mare.

[Scribbler]

If the cubes are soaked in enough hot water they will be a soup and won’t come out as cubes. Honestly I don’t see how that is really possible. The cube wouldn’t stay intact all through the diflgestive process. Are you seeing cube sized poop with lots of fibre?

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Simkie & @Scribbler and others… I need to clarify! She is not pooping out an entire hay cube!! :lol:

Hay cubes are made up of chopped and pressed hay. Those pieces of hay are roughly 1-2". Since she can’t grind anything, those are the pieces coming straight thru her digestive tract. Does that make more sense?

So it worries me, sure her belly feels full, but is she actually getting any nutrition from those cubes?

Anyway, I do prepare her cubes with hot water. In the morning I start the evening cubes. Then, when I dump them into her feed tub and add the senior, etc., I add more hot water and I sometimes use my hands to mash it all up, making sure those cubes are completely separated and everything else is mixed up.
I make the breakfast bucket at night, again with hot water, and we keep it in the heated tack room so that in the morning it’s not a brick of ice! (or otherwise too cold to eat).

Come to think of it, I could actually save the owner some money if she’d hear me out… hay cubes are freakin’ $$$$$ and since she insists on buying at the most expensive feed store around… :ambivalence:

[Simkie]

Have you ever really looked at the manure of a hay eating horse?

It’s full of short pieces of hay.

What you’re seeing is normal and not indicative of anything wrong.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Simkie

Have you ever really looked at the manure of a hay eating horse?

It’s full of short pieces of hay.

What you’re seeing is normal and not indicative of anything wrong.

YES!! I have. The pieces you see in a normal horses manure have been ground up by their molars, and sure you might get an odd bit or two, but in this case, none of it is ground up. I could take a picture I guess and show you the difference, but seriously, I am not crazy!! Think of it like this - a piece of spaghetti. Sure, it’s cooked it’s soft and you can just swallow it as-is, right? Now imagine if you just swallowed it as-is, and it came out the other end looking exactly as it went in… would that not worry you?

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I love these conversations about poop. :lol: There is just no other sport or hobby or endeavor where the participants talk about poop.

[WNT]

@4LeafCloverFarm

I love these conversations about poop. :lol: There is just no other sport or hobby or endeavor where the participants talk about poop.

And so passionately as well, lol.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@4LeafCloverFarm

I love these conversations about poop. :lol: There is just no other sport or hobby or endeavor where the participants talk about poop.

OMG!! ROFLMAO!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sooooooo true!

[goodhors]

I would continue the soaked cubes, the roughage is very good for her digestive system, rubbing and stimulating everything as it passes thru. I would Agee she may not be getting enough nutrients from it, so adding soaked pellets could help provide nutrients. You might check into timothy/alfalfa or plain timothy cubes to lower the protien of her total intake. My old horse could not do well on straight alfalfa, gave her the runs. She got soaked cubes and soaked beet pulp, also a forage feed, with some grain mixed in. She had lost some molars, quidded hay, but was in good flesh, not fat on purpose, at 35yrs.

I think she had more “bloom” feeding the well soaked cubes, better poop. Nice of you to be helping the old girl improve, despite owner.

[Scribbler]

Coarser more mature hay can be up to 50% nondigestible fibers like lignin, that come out in the poop in visible pieces.

Alfalfa has the nice soft green nutritious leaves. But it also can have stems like twiggy shrubs if it is more mature. And I wouldn’t want to make any bets about the quality of alfalfa that goes into cubes. So there could be quite a bit of nondigestible fiber.

My mare absolutely has a smaller volume of manure when we shift from a coarser hay to a softer second cut Timothy, And any manure, you can see the residual fibers in it, more or less depending on hay quality and dentition.

I feel like the alfalfa cubes chop the hay as short as it would be if the horse chewed it.

Anyhow, the small intestine extracts protein, vitamins, minerals, fats (like humans). The large intestine ferments fibers and extracts calories that way (unlike humans). But the undigestible fibers pass through.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

The pelleted alfalfa I use (Standlee) turns to dust essentially when soaked through. I think the process for making the cubes includes larger actual pieces for hay in them, so when soaked, it doesn’t “dissolve” completely like the pellets do. I hadn’t really given it much thought before chiming in on this thread.

[Simkie]

@Obsidian Fire

YES!! I have. The pieces you see in a normal horses manure have been ground up by their molars, and sure you might get an odd bit or two, but in this case, none of it is ground up. I could take a picture I guess and show you the difference, but seriously, I am not crazy!! Think of it like this - a piece of spaghetti. Sure, it’s cooked it’s soft and you can just swallow it as-is, right? Now imagine if you just swallowed it as-is, and it came out the other end looking exactly as it went in… would that not worry you?

Nope, wouldn’t worry me

Especially since you say the horse has improved on this diet. Sounds like it’s working! :yes: