Too much protein in puppy food - breeder suggests feeding adult dog food?

[Dr_Doolittle]

Would have to check - no longer have the bag so I need to look online (or the next time I am in the dog food aisle.) I am open to other brands, of course! This is just what she was started on so I would want to wean her off of it gradually.

[Dr_Doolittle]

IME, vets tend to recommend science diet or similar (whatever they have/sell at the office, at least that’s been my experience with my own vet.)

[Simkie]

@Dr_Doolittle

Would have to check - no longer have the bag so I need to look online (or the next time I am in the dog food aisle.) I am open to other brands, of course! This is just what she was started on so I would want to wean her off of it gradually.

I’d give them a call and see if you can get that ca max

I wound up with orijen 6 fish for the puppy that kicked off that thread I linked earlier–she’s turning 9 this year! Crazy how time flies. She’s been on 6 fish or regional red her whole life, if memory serves. Couldn’t be happier with how she’s done on it. Fingers crossed for a new puppy this summer, momma is due in about three weeks! And will feed that puppy the same…

What does your older dog eat?

[GoodTimes]

I meant more a long the lines of straight up asking your vet “Is a food with 19% protein appropriate for my puppy? Why or why not? Can you point me to some studies or a text?”

Any vet that I’ve used would either be able to answer that off hand or would quickly be able to refer you to some science based resources.
Especially this time of year when lots of puppies are visiting the clinics.

[mommy_peanut]

Having raised MANY Labradors & GSDs, for work/sport venues, I am rather particular about nutrition.
It is NOT protein that one needs to be careful with, as long as you are feeding enough of it.
19% is way too low for a growing puppy, no matter what the breed is.
You need to make sure the calcium & phosphorus levels are at the appropriate ratio with whatever brand/food you are feeding.

This is a very good article https://ivcjournal.com/feeding-large-breed-puppies/

[mommy_peanut]

@GoodTimes

Breeder doesn’t equal nutritionist.
Speak with your vet if you want a professional opinion. At least ask the breeder to give you some sources. But I would switch the puppy over to an age/size appropriate food.
Even the adult food that my dog eats is 28% protein.

Most Vets don’t have much knowledge in the way of nutrition either. Too many just suggest what they sell, which is usually garbage
While it seems as if this particular breeder doesn’t really know much…
most reputable breeders do know a lot about nutrition & what works or not for their particular breed.

[mommy_peanut]

@Raincityrider

I have heard more than one German Shepherd breeder discourage feeding puppy food to their young dogs. The argument was that protein and calorie levels in the average puppy formulas were too high for large and giant breeds and would accelerate growth to a degree that increased the risk of joint problems; I’ve never talked to a small dog breeder who had the same concerns. The caveat was the majority recommended a combination diet of adult commercial food with a supplemental raw diet to support the pups nutritional requirements, not just switching to adult kibble outright.

I’ve not had to make that specific decision for a dog of mine so I’m not sure how I feel about the concept. Supplementing with a raw diet that consistently meets the changing nutritional needs of a growing dog sounds a bit tricky. I do know that entirely too many dogs are having joint issues regardless of breed and it does make you consider if diet is a contributing factor. Personally, I think genetics play a far greater role. I’d like to see GSD breeders take a greater interest in restoring their lines to their level backed, working dog roots instead of the wobbly frog legged creatures that are currently staggering around the show rings.

You might want to get to know working line GSD breeders then.
I’ve NEVER heard any of the breeders I know say such things regarding the protein & calories.
Most of us feed a high protein to both pups & dogs… barring any medical issues.

[Raincityrider]

My GSD was a working bred dog so yes, good working line breeders certainly exist. The last breeder I chatted with re the protein restriction theory was breeding working lines with a focus on schutzhund for what it’s worth. Please take note I did not say I agreed with the idea, simply that I had encountered it more than once and it always included supplementing adult food with some sort of raw diet.

[GoodTimes]

See my next post where I said to straight up ask your vet if 19% protein is appropriate for that particular puppy, and why or why not. It has nothing to do with brands.
It’s a fairly simple question that most vets should be able to answer. If they don’t know it off the top of their head they have access to peer reviewed studies and texts above and beyond what the average owner or breeder will have.

This particular breeder does not seem to be informed with regard to nutrition, reputable or not.

Anyway, my point was if the OP is willing to ask a bunch of strangers on the internet (a horse forum at that) for nutrition advice, than why not ask your vet?

[S1969]

@GoodTimes

See my next post where I said to straight up ask your vet if 19% protein is appropriate for that particular puppy, and why or why not. It has nothing to do with brands.
It’s a fairly simple question that most vets should be able to answer. If they don’t know it off the top of their head they have access to peer reviewed studies and texts above and beyond what the average owner or breeder will have.

This particular breeder does not seem to be informed with regard to nutrition, reputable or not.

Anyway, my point was if the OP is willing to ask a bunch of strangers on the internet (a horse forum at that) for nutrition advice, than why not ask your vet?

I agree. I know some really great vets that would be able to talk about this for hours. And I know a lot of breeders because I’m active in my breed club. Many of them are not all that…well, how to say nicely? Educated. They know what has worked/not worked for their puppies/dogs, but not really why. Some of the things I’ve heard my breeder friends say are quite surprising.

I have also heard “don’t feed puppy food to puppies” but I always have done so. The reasons I’ve heard have been all over the board…In general, I would be far more inclined to trust that the major dog food brands to have done the research than the breeder.

[pony_baloney]

My trainer breeds Great Pyrenees and feeds mostly raw to the adults and pups. Never any joint issues…and her dogs are HUGE!

[Dr_Doolittle]

Thanks to everyone for weighing in!

Puppy has a vet appt. tomorrow morning for a Parvo/Distemper booster (and will be microchipped), and I will ask the vet then - though you know how it is with vet practices these days: you park, call, they take your dog from you, bring it back when done - and then you get to talk to a masked vet for a few minutes in the parking lot.

I feed my 11 year old Simply Nourish adult (NOT grain free.) It gets good reviews (with the exception of the pea protein), and the ingredients list seems to check all the boxes; recently they removed the tomato pomace and canola oil (which were the only "controversial ingredients), and the protein in their puppy food is 29%, calcium is 1.2%.

All things being equal, I will probably transition Tea over to this food as I run out of the Eukanuba puppy - she seems to prefer her “big sister’s” food when she steals a kibble or two!

My dogs also get supplemented with carrots, broccoli, bits of apple, blueberries, white meat chicken - all in small quantities (I use bits of chicken and string cheese for the puppy when working in distracting environments, but NOT to excess.) I have heard that adding some sardines can be good, haven’t tried that yet since I don’t generally put them on my shopping list

[Carrera]

I breed large dogs and I do not feed puppy food ever. I find pups that are fed a puppy food tend to knuckle over on the front end and have strange growth patterns. I’m not saying I’m a nutritionist by any means, this is just what I have observed over decades of breeding. I also add herring oil, probiotics and joint supplement for all my pups until they are 18 weeks old.

[Dr_Doolittle]

Is this a consistent result of feeding puppy food? This is not a large breed dog - she’s a Whippet, will probably top out between 25 and 30 pounds. I’m at the vet right now waiting while she gets a Parvo/distemper booster and a microchip, will ask the vet when they come back out to the parking lot – but they will probably recommend the food they sell here!

[Simkie]

@Dr_Doolittle

Is this a consistent result of feeding puppy food?

Nope.

There are a lot of kibbles (puppy or adult!) out there with inappropriate levels of calcium for a baby dog, and that can lead to developmental joint issues.

So, look to the literature, read labels, and find the food that’s best suited to your desires (price, ingredients, etc) that has the label you need.

For example, I haven’t fed a puppy kibble in…wow, a really long time. But what I do feed my puppies is quite a bit more protein than most low or mid tier puppy kibbles. The label is appropriate for a young dog, how it’s branded is fairly immaterial.

https://orijen.ca/en-CA/for-dogs-2/six-fish/ns-ori-sixfish.html

Btw, the very first part of that thread I linked above talks about knuckling over:

@wendy;6099447

Most of the research on feeding of puppies was conducted on the large/giant breeds, after someone noticed that if you feed these dogs what you’d intuitively think is good- lots of calcium for bone growth, lots of calories to support growth- the bones grew wrong. You get people talk about “knuckling over”, OCD lesions, pano, etc. At first people were confused- too much protein? too much calcium? too many calories? finally they figured out that it was the calcium level that caused the most serious bone growth problems. So they invented “Large breed puppy food”. You’ll notice if you go around reading labels that “large breed puppy foods” always have lower calcium levels. Always. There is some dispute as to what level is too high- is 1.5% too high, or do we really need to restrict to 0.8%? But there is NO dispute that any food with calcium over 1.7% is really bad for a growing puppy. TOTW and many other higher-protein foods have calcium levels up in the 2 to 3% range, which is clearly way too high.

I know there’s a lot there, but it’s really good info, backed up by published literature, about exactly this

[Dr_Doolittle]

Thanks, that’s helpful! Just talked to the vet, they advised feeding a good quality puppy food - we talked about large breed puppies and the protein issue and the joint issues, she said large breed puppies should get a special large breed puppy food for that reason.

Calcium levels for both the Eukanuba and the Simply Nourish (puppy) seem to be right around 1.1, 1.2.

[Dr_Doolittle]

Curious @Carrera - What type of joint supplement do you feed? Is this prophylactic, or just “insurance” as an anti-inflammatory?

Same with the herring oil?

[Simkie]

@Dr_Doolittle

Calcium levels for both the Eukanuba and the Simply Nourish (puppy) seem to be right around 1.1, 1.2.

Were you able to turn up a MAX calcium? When I poked around earlier, I could only find a minimum. You really want them to guarantee a max. It’s worth calling, and switching, if they can’t or won’t give you that number

A minimum doesn’t help you much when going over a certain amount is the issue.

[Carrera]

I feed a supplement made by a Canadian company called thrive. I use it on my old man and I’ve used it on my boy that has been growing like crazy. Its more for “insurance” and piece of mind. I stop feeding the joint supplement when they hit 18 weeks. I feed herring oil for good fats and brain development as well as it makes them have the nicest coats.

[TKR]

I would not trust my vet for pet food recommendations. They all sell that SD crap and I would not feed that to ANY dog or cat! I think it’s like young horses - they need the calories, vitamins and minerals in the ratios that are ideal. They also might hit a growing spurt when you have to back off - as I have with young horses, to reduce any chance or incidence of joint inflammation. There is not a “one size fits all” - you have to constantly evaluate your puppy to insure you are meeting the needs and not exceeding them. I LOVE GSDs and don’t want anything else – mine are strictly working lines and there are ALOT of working line breeders and they feel the same as those of you who expressed disdain for the show line slopey hips. I think even the show ring dogs are improving as there was one shown in the UK that was literally walking on his hocks - which were on the ground. I hope so - great breed that deserves to be bred correctly!