Feeding Puppies: Food Evaluation Spinoff (LONG!)

[Simkie]

I was going to post this in this thread here, as that’s where we started talking about this, but figured it was better not to hijack.

Here are Wendy’s posts on feeding puppies from that thread:

@wendy;6099447

Most of the research on feeding of puppies was conducted on the large/giant breeds, after someone noticed that if you feed these dogs what you’d intuitively think is good- lots of calcium for bone growth, lots of calories to support growth- the bones grew wrong. You get people talk about “knuckling over”, OCD lesions, pano, etc. At first people were confused- too much protein? too much calcium? too many calories? finally they figured out that it was the calcium level that caused the most serious bone growth problems. So they invented “Large breed puppy food”. You’ll notice if you go around reading labels that “large breed puppy foods” always have lower calcium levels. Always. There is some dispute as to what level is too high- is 1.5% too high, or do we really need to restrict to 0.8%? But there is NO dispute that any food with calcium over 1.7% is really bad for a growing puppy. TOTW and many other higher-protein foods have calcium levels up in the 2 to 3% range, which is clearly way too high.
So the studies are Mostly talking about the bigger dogs. That doesn’t mean that smaller dogs are immune to these problems- they have the same basic physiology. They just have a shorter period of time during which to grow, so you won’t see the overt more obvious symptoms, but it makes sense that it’s just best to avoid feeding too much calcium to puppies.
The 6-month age is stated because around 6 months of age it seems that puppies develop the ability to control the amount of calcium their bodies absorb and use- so before 6 months, everything you feed goes into the pup’s bones for good or ill, but after 6 months, if you feed excessive calcium the pup’s body will in general just not bother to use it.
There is also a lot of science supporting the idea that puppies who are kept skinny grow up healthier. The most shocking one was the hip dysplasia study, where they dramatically reduced the rate of hip dysplasia simply by feeding fewer calories during puppyhood and over life. Over-feeding large breed puppies in general is well-known to produce abberant growth of the bones and joints.
_very similar to horses, don’t we all know that if you mis-feed your foal you might end up with crippling OCD lesions?

this is the best summary around about the basic science, but keep in mind the writer works for Eaglepack (thus some bias towards that food may be present):
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/large_and_giant_breed_nutritional_research.htm

there are lots of studies to read, but since my lunch hour is rapidly ending, here are a few of them:

[B]Vet Pathol. 1986 Sep;23(5):594-605.

Morphological findings in young dogs chronically fed a diet containing excess calcium.[/B]

Goedegebuure SA, Hazewinkel HA.

Abstract

Morphologic findings in Great Dane pups fed a supplement containing three times the recommended calcium content (HC-group) and a diet which followed recommended requirements (NC-group) are described. In the HC-group significant skeletal changes were found using histologic, histomorphometric, and bone labeling techniques. Both cartilage and osseous changes were present. Articular and physeal cartilage changes consisted of various-sized irregularities of retained cartilage with disturbances in enchondral ossification. These changes were comparable to osteochondrotic lesions. Osseous lesions were characterized by retarded maturation and retarded remodeling of trabecular and cortical bone, a higher percentage of total bone volume, and a decreased number of osteoclasts. Initially the parathyroid glands were found to be less active, and in the thyroid glands the C-cells were more numerous. At the end of the study these differences were far less pronounced.

[B]J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006 Sep 1;229(5):690-3.

Lifelong diet restriction and radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis of the hip joint in dogs.[/B]

Smith GK, Paster ER, Powers MY, Lawler DF, Biery DN, Shofer FS, McKelvie PJ, Kealy RD.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:

To evaluate the effects of diet restriction on development of radiographic evidence of hip joint osteoarthritis in dogs.

DESIGN:

Longitudinal cohort study.

ANIMALS:

48 Labrador Retrievers from 7 litters.

PROCEDURES:

Forty-eight 6-week-old puppies from 7 litters were paired with littermates by sex and weight, and each pairmate was randomly assigned to 1 of 2 groups of 24 dogs each. Starting at 8 weeks of age, 1 group was fed ad libitum (control fed) and the other was fed 25% less (restricted fed) of the same diet for life on a pairwise basis. The dogs’ hip joints were radiographed in the standard ventrodorsal hip-extended view at multiple intervals prior to 1 year of age and at annual intervals thereafter on the basis of birth anniversary. A board-certified radiologist unaware of group assignment scored the radiographs for evidence of osteoarthritis.

RESULTS:

Prevalence of radiographic evidence of hip joint osteoarthritis in all dogs increased linearly throughout the study, from an overall prevalence of 15% at 2 years to 67% by 14 years. Restricted-fed dogs had lower prevalence and later onset of hip joint osteoarthritis. Median age at first identification of radiographic evidence of hip joint osteoarthritis was significantly lower in the control-fed group (6 years), compared with the restricted-fed group (12 years).

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

Restricted feeding delayed or prevented development of radiographic signs of hip joint osteoarthritis in this cohort of Labrador Retrievers. Lifetime maintenance of 25% diet restriction delayed onset and reduced severity of hip joint osteoarthritis, thus favorably affecting both duration and quality of life. In addition, the data indicated that development of hip joint osteoarthritis was not bimodal in these dogs but occurred as a continuum throughout life.

[B]Am J Vet Res. 2002 Jul;63(7):1036-47.

Influence of dietary calcium and phosphorus content in a fixed ratio on growth and development in Great Danes.[/B]

Lauten SD, Cox NR, Brawner WR Jr, Goodman SA, Hathcock JT, Montgomery RD, Kincaid SA, Morrison NE, Spano JS, Lepine AJ, Reinhart GA, Baker HJ.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:

To study the musculoskeletal development of Great Dane puppies fed various dietary concentrations of calcium (Ca) and phosphorus § in fixed ratio by use of dual energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), determination of serum insulin-like growth factor 1 and parathyroid hormone concentrations, radiography, and blood chemistry analysis results.

ANIMALS:

32 purebred Great Dane puppies from 4 litters.

PROCEDURE:

At weaning, puppies were assigned randomly to 1 of 3 diets. Blood was collected for biochemical analyses and hormone assays, and radiography and DEXA were performed through 18 months of age. Changes in body weight, bone mineral content, fat tissue weight, lean mass, result of serum biochemical analyses, hormonal concentrations, and radius lengths were analyzed through 18 months of age.

RESULTS:

Bone mineral content of puppies correlated positively with Ca and P content of the diets fed. Significant differences between groups in bone mineral content, lean mass, and body fat were apparent early. The disparity among groups increased until 6 months of age and then declined until body composition was no longer different at 12 months of age. Accretion rates for skeletal mineral content, fat, and lean tissue differed from each other and by diet group.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

Ca and P concentrations in the diet of young Great Dane puppies are rapidly reflected in the bone mineral content of the puppies until 5 to 6 months of age, after which hormonal regulation adjusts absorption and excretion of these minerals. Appropriate Ca and P concentrations in diets are important in young puppies < 6 months of age.

[B]J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2006 Oct;90(9-10):394-401.

Calcium-excess causes subclinical changes of bone growth in Beagles but not in Foxhound-crossbred dogs, as measured in X-rays.[/B]

Dobenecker B, Kasbeitzer N, Flinspach S, Köstlin R, Matis U, Kienzle E.

Abstract

Numerous investigations and reports have covered the potential negative effects of an excess of calcium (Ca) in the skeletal development of young dogs. However, it still remains unclear why not all puppies, particularly of larger breeds, develop clinical signs of skeletal disorders after an overexposure to Ca. This trial with the small Beagle breed and a larger Foxhound-crossbred dog (with an adult weight of around 35 kg) investigated the effects of Ca-excess on parameters of bone growth. The employed small breed is known for its chondrodystrophic predispositions, no such data are reported for the slender hound-type Foxhound-crossbred dogs. The Ca-supply had no influence on weight development and general health of the dogs. The measurements of bone lengths and widths in X-rays of the forearm of Beagles and Foxhound-crossbred dogs at 6 weeks of age, and again after a period of overexposure to Ca at about 27 weeks of age, revealed a growth-reducing influence only in Beagles, without influence on clinical parameters of skeletal health.

[B]J Nutr. 1991 Nov;121(11 Suppl):S107-13.

Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake.[/B]

Nap RC, Hazewinkel HA, Voorhout G, Van den Brom WE, Goedegebuure SA, Van 'T Klooster AT.

Abstract

Feeding a dog of a large breed with a diet exceeding the National Research Council (1974) recommendations for energy, protein, calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D may result in disturbances of skeletal development. The effects of excess energy and various calcium:phosphorous ratios per se have been reported by others. The role of dietary protein, especially with regard to calcium metabolism and skeletal development, in large breed-dogs is reported in this article. Seventeen Great Dane pups, 7 wk of age, were divided into three groups. During 18 wk each group received isoenergetic dry food (approximately 15 kJ metabolizable energy/g) containing 31.6, 23.1 or 14.6% protein on dry matter basis. No differences were found among the high (H-Pr), normal (N-Pr) and low protein (L-Pr) groups for the height at the shoulder. Significant differences were found between the H-Pr and L-Pr groups for body weight and plasma albumin and among all three groups for plasma urea. The differences in protein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolism and skeletal development. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely.

[quote=wendy;6099479]added in a separate message cause the previous was long:
but wolf puppies eat bone-filled prey don’t they? how could excess calcium be bad?
-young wolf puppies get fed what the parents bring home in their bellies- most likely bone-free chunks of meat hastily swallowed without too much bone, or whatever pieces the parents bring home, such as leg, where the bone is too large for a pup to consume.
-older wolf puppies get the scraps after the adults eat. Starvation is a common cause of wolf puppy death. Roly-poly fat wolf puppies don’t exist in nature.

When raising a puppy on a commercial kibble/canned diet, don’t just read “puppy food”, check the label and make sure it seems ok for YOUR puppy. If it says “all life stages” it may or may not be suitable for YOUR puppy. Puppies are much more sensitive to poor feeding than older dogs. I’d look for protein at least 28%, preferably much higher, and from dead animals, not from corn, soy, legumes, or gluten; calcium less than 2% (note most labels only give the minimum calcium, not the maximum or even the “average”, so if you can’t determine the maximum isn’t under 2.0% pass it on by); and make sure you can find the kcal/cup and be able to figure out using an online metabolic calculator how much to feed based on the kcal requirements of the dog.
If you want to try to raise a puppy on a home-prepared or even purchased raw diet BE VERY CAREFUL. There are scattered reports of pups presenting with serious skeletal disease after raised on such diets that turned out to contain incorrect amounts of calcium. The worst was a shetland sheepdog fed a commercial product that you were supposed to mix with meat to produce a “balanced” meal. Turns out it wasn’t correctly balanced for calcium, and the pup was seriously harmed. It didn’t give the name of the product, but it’s not hard to figure out. So read your labels carefully. AAFCO regulations about labeling are NOT intended to aid the consumer, or the dog; they are intended to aid the dog food manufacturers.
[/quote]

I was curious, so I pulled Ca, Protein, Fat, Fiber, Moisture, Kcal and top three ingredients of several ultra premiums (mostly grain free, some with grain snuck in there) into a spreadsheet.

Here are the options that are from 1% to 1.7% Ca and over 28% protein (these are sorted from 1% Ca to 1.7% Ca):

      Blue Buffalo Wilderness                Small Breed Chicken

Blue Buffalo Wilderness Large Breed Chicken
Castor & Pollux Organix Grain Free Adult
Canine Caviar Open Sky
Innova Puppy
Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit Meal
Horizon Amicus Puppy
Horizon Amicus Adult
Acana Senior
Acana Adult Dog
Acana Puppy Large Breed
Castor & Pollux Ultramix Grain Free Adult
Castor & Pollux Ultramix Grain Free & Poultry Free Adult
Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey
Horizon Amicus Senior & Weight Management
Great Life Grain Free Buffalo
Canine Caviar Grain Free Puppy
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon
Earthborn Holistics Coastal Catch
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Duck
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Healthy Weight Chicken
Petcurian Now Fresh Large Breed Puppy
Wellness CORE Reduced Fat
Acana Light & Fit
Acana Adult Large Breed
Acana Puppy Small Breed
Acana Puppy & Junior
Acana Adult Small Breed
Acana Wild Prairie
Great Life Grain Free Chicken
Acana Sport & Agility
Acana Pacifica
Annamaet Ultra
Timberwolf Wild & Natural
Annamaet Grain Free Manitok
Innova Prime Salmon & Herring
Earthborn Holistics Great Plains Feast
Annamaet Grain Free Salcha
Back to Basics Duck
Back to Basics Pork
Back to Basics Turkey
EVO Weight Management
Brothers Complete Allergy Turkey Formula
Nutrisource Performance Chicken & Rice
Orijen 6 Fish
Orijen Adult
Orijen Senior
Dogswell Nutrisca Chicken & Chickpea
Orijen Puppy
Orijen Puppy Large

(These are on this list due to their protein and Ca content ONLY, and may not be appropriate for other reasons, so evaluate each for your needs, etc. Also, for my purposes, Ca levels here are highest reported–Orijen is the only company that lists min/max.)

Brands on my sheet are:

  Acana

Addiction
Annamaet
Annamaet Grain Free
Artemis Fresh Mix
Back to Basics
Blue Buffalo Wilderness
Brothers Complete
California Natural
Canidae
Canine Caviar
Castor & Pollux Organix
Castor & Pollux Ultramix
Chicken Soup
Dogswell
Dogswell
Earthborn Holistics
EVO
Great Life
Horizon Amicus
Horizon Complete
Horizon Pulsar
Innova
Lotus
Merrick
Natural Balance
Nature’s Logic
Nature’s Variety Instinct
Nature’s Variety Prairie
Nutrisource
Nutrisource Grain Free
Nutro Ultra
Orijen
Petcurian Go!
Petcurian Now Fresh
Pinnacle
Pure Vita
Solid Gold
Taste of the Wild
Timberwolf
Tuscan Natural Carne
Tuscan Natural Harvest
Tuscan Natural Simply Pure
Vet’s Choice Holistic Health Extension
Wellness CORE
Ziwi Peak

Brands that I was not able to include because they do not publish their Ca levels on the web are:

  Blackwood

Darford Zero/G
Fromm
Horizon Legacy
Natural Planet Organics

I thought this was interesting, and that it might give others a place to start when looking for puppy food.

Are there any brands I missed?

[Casey09]

RE: brands -
I haven’t checked the specific levels, but have you checked Fromm? I just switched my large breed dog, who is 1, from Innova Large Breed Puppy to Fromm Large Breed Puppy.

[Simkie]

I did not check Fromm–thanks for the reminder on them. Looks like I can’t include them, though, as they don’t publish their Ca levels on their website. Bummer!

[BLBGP]

My dogs (one who is allergic to the world) have been doing really well on Canidae. And an amazing, unexpected side effect, for them at least, is no stinky farts - ever!

[SquishTheBunny]

We had 3 cases of HOD in over the past 2 weeks, a jack russell, a border collie and a great dane. All were eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy. I found that really interesting. Coincidence, but really bizarre!

[MunchingonHay]

Chicken Soup for the puppy lovers’ soul

I fed this to my puppy of unknown breeding for the first 8 months or so. I knew he was going to be big, so we wanted to be careful of his joints/bones.

When I was researching foods to feed him I knew I wanted; grain-free, proteins from meat sources, low calcium levels, and a good protein %.

I would have continued to feed Chicken Soup, but pup developed a chicken allergy so I switched him to ToTW either the purple bag (lamb) or yellow bag (buffalo and venison)

[Simkie]

@MunchingonHay;6100638

Chicken Soup for the puppy lovers’ soul

Another that does not list their calcium levels on their website

[SuperAlter]

Nutro, Sorry if you got that one already! I didnt see it but that doesnt mean anything

[Simkie]

Nutro only lists calcium levels for their Ultra line on their website.

Merrick had AWESOME customer service–emailed most of the companies on the “cannot evaluate” list last night requesting calcium levels, and Merrick responded first thing this AM.

I will update the lists in the original post.

@SquishTheBunny;6100590

We had 3 cases of HOD in over the past 2 weeks, a jack russell, a border collie and a great dane. All were eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy. I found that really interesting. Coincidence, but really bizarre!

That’s wild! I have heard some not so good things about the Blue Buffalo stuff and have stayed away from it…

[wendy]

I didn’t really follow what your lists on your OP were lists of? the first one was “suitable” by Ca and protein, but what were the other ones?

Another thing to think about re: puppies: exposure to a wide variety of potential allergens very early in life is thought to be protective against developing food allergies. Sticking with one food for your pup may not be the best way to go.

[Simkie]

Wendy, there are headers at the top of each list. They are, in order: foods that meet your requirements re: calcium levels and protein; brands evaluated; brands not evaluated because the information is not available.

Interesting about the allergens. I’ve not had any issues with allergies since I’ve been purchasing from responsible, highly respected breeders. We did have issues with the dog purchased from the pet store (we didn’t know any better then!)

[wendy]

oh, well, I can’t see the headers, maybe just my interface is yucky. Well, I know it is.

re: allergies. Like hip dysplasia, there is thought to be a complex interaction between inheritance and environment.
You have to inherit the susceptibility, and then whether it manifests depends on the environment. Some breeds/ lines within breeds clearly carry a higher susceptibility to allergies. But the hope is that if you expose the pup to enough allergens early enough in life the pup will develop tolerances to them and you won’t see the trait manifest symptomatically.
It’s another thing to ask your potential breeder about- hey, do your dogs tend to have allergies?

[Simkie]

Wendy (or anyone else), if you would like to see the spreadsheet, I’d be happy to email it. Just shoot me a PT with your email address. It’s still a work in progress, but I really like to be able to view and compare multiple brands all in one place. I like data

[Simkie]

Updated the original post with a few more kibbles that meet the calcium and protein requirements.

Still haven’t heard back from several companies…Fromm and Chicken Soup are the notable ones.

Here’s also a list of kibbles that are below 1.7% calcium, over 28% protein with only meat ingredients in the top three spots.

Blue Buffalo Wilderness Small Breed Chicken
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Large Breed Chicken
Innova Puppy
Acana Puppy Large Breed
Castor & Pollux Ultramix Grain Free Adult
Castor & Pollux Ultramix Grain Free & Poultry Free Adult
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Healthy Weight Chicken
Wellness CORE Reduced Fat
Timberwolf Wild & Natural
Annamaet Grain Free Manitok
Innova Prime Salmon & Herring
Annamaet Grain Free Salcha
Back to Basics Duck
Back to Basics Pork
Back to Basics Turkey
EVO Weight Management
Orijen 6 Fish
Orijen Adult
Orijen Senior
Orijen Puppy
Orijen Puppy Large

Still trying to decide what to feed our upcoming puppy, but at least there are a lot of options!

[wendy]

I would avoid the “reduced fat” and “weight management” foods for puppies- Wellness core reduced fat and EVO weight management. Pups need fat.

Are you only interested in kibbles? Natures’ variety raw (the chicken formula- some of their raws the calcium is a bit up there) is a nice puppy food.

[Simkie]

I’d love to do raw, but the cost of prepared raw is crazy for large dogs–$10/day per dog last I looked–and that’s simply not possible for me.

Ideally, I’d like to use the same food for my adult dog as for the puppy, and it certainly looks like there are several that would work for that, although it does shorten my list–I really need high kcal/cup for Koa. I also won’t feed Natura Pet products, so that takes the list to these options:

Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit Meal
Horizon Amicus Puppy
Earthborn Holistics Puppy Vantage
Timberwolf Wild & Natural
Orijen 6 Fish
Orijen Adult
Orijen Puppy

The Amicus only comes in little bags, so that’s out.

The Timberwolf is a special order at my feed store–doesn’t take it out of the running, but the pain in the ass factor of getting it ordered does need to be considered.

Koa’s currently on a trial of Orijen 6 Fish to see if it fixes her snot issue–if it works, we’ll probably just feed the puppy 6 Fish as well.

[Simkie]

Updated the lists at the top and also the shorter one a couple posts up listing kibbles with only meat in the top three.

Had to call Chicken Soup and Taste of the Wild (for the puppy formulas) for calcium values. Also called Fromm, and they are looking for them for me. For the most part, those that don’t list their values on the web have been very prompt about getting back to me.

The spreadsheet sits at 304 kibbles currently!

[Fence.Hopper]

@Simkie I know this is an old thread - just wondering (hoping) if this information is still up to date? We got a new puppy this past weekend and bought some Orijen Large Breed Puppy food It looks like the calcium is listed as 1.2% min, but I don’t see a max value. Our puppy is right between 5 and 6 months, so perhaps the calcium is a moot point?

While I’m asking things, Orijen has a Large Breed Puppy and an Amazing Grains (grain-inclusive) Large Breed Puppy. Is there a benefit to one vs the other (grains vs no)?

[Simkie]

Congrats on your puppy!!

I honestly don’t know if anything has changed, but I’ve rolled with this through, wow, two more dogs. I feed Orijen 6 Fish from puppyhood on.

The grain thing depends on where you stand on the grain free/DCM thing. My opinion is that it’s a complex, multi factorial issue, and that a grain free diet plays little to zero role in DCM. There are a few links in this post if you’d like some info:

Dog Kibble, Experience and Opinions

Yeah, it really has. The FDA has walked it way back, which is not at all surprising considering what little evidence there was with the release. https://medium.com/@danielschulof_18279/bad-science-and-big-business-are-behind-the-biggest-pet-food-story-in-a-decade-5cdafae7be77

[Fence.Hopper]

Thanks for the link! You feed the adult formula to puppies as well? I always thought there was some difference, enough difference to make it worthwhile to buy and feed puppy food, but now that I think of it, I couldn’t tell you what the difference is. Our puppy likes the Large Breed Puppy well enough, but is vacuum like so not all that picky.