Top 25 mare families in the world

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3702896]
I will quote you exactly.

Reece wrote in one post on this thread: “The Holsteiner Verband is not going to approve Hickstead for obvious reasons. He is not a Holsteiner.”

Reece wrote in a second post on this thread: “This is the issue though Tom. The Verband would not have approved Hickstead , period. He is not a Holsteiner …”

So at least two times you said the Verband would not approve him because “He is not a Holsteiner.”

Case closed on the allegation that I am twisting your words.

In terms of twisting words, what I said was that the KWPN sometimes, on the rare occasion, approves a stallion it has not inspected. I said it that was a good enough policy for the KWPN it might be a good enough policy for the AHHA, which is certainly in need of more outcross sires and hgh-performance sires then the KWPN. Your post insinuates that I said he is approved KWPN. He is not. I have listed on this board (perhaps) but definitely on two other boards what studbooks he is approvd by. The KWPN was never on my list.

The Holsteiner Verband is in control only to the extent that studbooks in the USA, Australia, etc., which are indpendent studbooks and not daughter studbooks or sister studbooks, cede control or influence to the Verband. The AHHA is governed by its memorandum of association, bylaws, and the governance that comes from the board of directors. Not the Verband’s board, which has no standing, but the AHHA’s board.[/QUOTE]

"Reece wrote in one post on this thread: “The Holsteiner Verband is not going to approve Hickstead for obvious reasons. He is not a Holsteiner.”

Yes Tom , for “obvious reasons” like the aforementioned size issue and inability to monitor and assess in an experimental breeding program. I didn’t realize that you had to be so right about everything that you would play on every word I write…literally. I thought you knew enough about the Holsteiner Verband mindset and breeding objectives that you would have known what I was referring to. Evidently not.

I also thought you knew enough about breeding to understand that the last thing the AHHA “certainly” needs, is outcross stallions. Almost the entire MARE HERD in the AHHA is already outcross Tom ! We need stallions with CONDENSED Holsteiner genetics…not outcross genetics.

Once again , your copy and paste bylaws post in regards to Verband and sister studbooks only goes to show your need to hang on every word. Do you not realize what has been going on for the last couple of years Tom ? The HV is not happy with the product carrying their brand. I don’t care what kind of written by-law you scare up. If they don’t become satisfied with the quality of the product displaying their brand , well…you were right after all. The sister studbooks will have COMPLETE autonomy , without HV support, and this will be catastrophic in many ways but especially in regards to product value . But then again , it should matter not to you, since you are neither an AHHA member, nor are you a Holsteiner breeder.

[ponygirl]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;3702992]

The sister studbooks will have COMPLETE autonomy , without HV support, and this will be catastrophic in many ways but especially in regards to product value . [/QUOTE]

So not good.

[tom]

@ShowjumpersUSA;3702948

No, they wouldn’t want to be the first to approve their own product? It would seem to me, if he was going to be approved by any of the larger studbooks, it would be his own KWPN. I stress, I am saying it “seems to me.” You are certainly free to have your own opinion but, please try to refrain from trashing other’s opinions.

And, while I’m at it, it may be of some interest to you to know the Verband doesn’t follow the KWPN model, nor does the AHHA. Your words indicate you seem to have some confusion about that.

I am not confused Bonnie. And I suspect I am the only one among you, Reece, and myself that has actually had a stallion become approved by the Verband while under his or her ownership.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

@tom;3703055

I am not confused Bonnie. And I suspect I am the only one among you, Reece, and myself that has actually had a stallion become approved by the Verband while under his or her ownership.

One would think you would have some knowledge about how it works. I thought you would be aware that each studbook it’s own rules. The Verband makes it’s own rules as does the KWPN. The Verband doesn’t follow the KWPN model, nor does the AHHA. I can’t understand why you think if the KWPN does something it should be alright for the AHHA to do it. KWPN has nothing to do with the AHHA.

[tom]

@Bayhawk;3702992

"Reece wrote in one post on this thread: “The Holsteiner Verband is not going to approve Hickstead for obvious reasons. He is not a Holsteiner.”

Yes Tom , for “obvious reasons” like the aforementioned size issue and inability to monitor and assess in an experimental breeding program. I didn’t realize that you had to be so right about everything that you would play on every word I write…literally. I thought you knew enough about the Holsteiner Verband mindset and breeding objectives that you would have known what I was referring to. Evidently not.

I also thought you knew enough about breeding to understand that the last thing the AHHA “certainly” needs, is outcross stallions. Almost the entire MARE HERD in the AHHA is already outcross Tom ! We need stallions with CONDENSED Holsteiner genetics…not outcross genetics.

Once again , your copy and paste bylaws post in regards to Verband and sister studbooks only goes to show your need to hang on every word. Do you not realize what has been going on for the last couple of years Tom ? The HV is not happy with the product carrying their brand. I don’t care what kind of written by-law you scare up. If they don’t become satisfied with the quality of the product displaying their brand , well…you were right after all. The sister studbooks will have COMPLETE autonomy , without HV support, and this will be catastrophic in many ways but especially in regards to product value . But then again , it should matter not to you, since you are neither an AHHA member, nor are you a Holsteiner breeder.

What you do not seem to understand is that words have meaning. Well at least for many of us, words have meaning. If you are going to write silly or incorrect things and then protest when your words are challenged perhaps you should take more care when composing your thoughts.

What the AHHA “needs” is rightfully determined on a policy level by the board. They made a decision. You object. Big deal. Don’t use Hickstead if you don’t want to. But instead you rail against the AHHA board, and others who think that maybe the issue is not as black-and-white as you see it, for their heterodoxy and heteropraxis to the breeding gospel according to Reece and Bonnie.

And again you write things that are inaccurate. AHHA horses do not “carry their (i.e., the Verband’s) brand”; AHHA horses are branded with the AHHA brand because they are American Holsteiners; they do not have the Verband’s brand. Further, the AHHA is not a “sister studbook” or a daughter studbook of the Verband. It is an independent legal person incorporated in the USA that has never quite figured out if it should serve the interests of US breeders by promoting American Holsteiners or if it should attempt to replicate what German breeders do, albeit that is an impossible task. That’s the fight as I see it. It is a fight between realists and dogmatists. Between people who have actually had some success breeding some competition horses and those that have this text-book notion of how breeding competition horses is done because they have talked to people in Germany (and probably in English!) and think they now have unlocked the door to success.

[tom]

@ShowjumpersUSA;3703075

One would think you would have some knowledge about how it works. I thought you would be aware that each studbook it’s own rules. The Verband makes it’s own rules as does the KWPN. The Verband doesn’t follow the KWPN model, nor does the AHHA. I can’t understand why you think if the KWPN does something it should be alright for the AHHA to do it. KWPN has nothing to do with the AHHA.

Reading comprehension, Bonnie, is a wonderful skill. Try acquiring it, please. What I said, on two occasions, using almost precisely the same language, was:

“that the KWPN sometimes, on the rare occasion, approves a stallion it has not inspected. I said it that was a good enough policy for the KWPN it might be a good enough policy for the AHHA…”.

Where did I see that the Verband follows the KWPN’s rules, or vice versa? Where did I say that the KWPN follows the AHHA’s rules, or vice versa?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703055]
I am not confused Bonnie. And I suspect I am the only one among you, Reece, and myself that has actually had a stallion become approved by the Verband while under his or her ownership.[/QUOTE]

Tom , would you please get over yourself ! Look at your ego building play on words. Who gives a crap if Condios became approved under your ownership ? Who cares if you owned Ekstein ? You didn’t breed them. I can go the the Holstehalle next year and buy a stallion before the approvals and he might become approved under my ownership. Who cares ?

This… look at what I’ve done attitude is becoming quite pitiful. You have only been breeding for 8 years , yet you come off like the know all, end all , of all things sporthorses. You haven’t been breeding long enough to even fully understand the pooping habits of your mares yet ! Get over yourself…please !

[tom]

For you and Bonnie the Verband’s stallion approval rules are theoretical. For me, they were experienced. That’s the difference.

Where did I say I bred Condios?

Where did I say I bred Ekstein?

Shall we go back to comparing the success, or lack thereof, of our respective breeding programs?

I do have, from my first crop, an approved stallion/international showjumper that also won a stallion competition in the Netherlands; was 4th at the Zwolle International Show, 4th at the Dublin Horse Show, and Ireland’s Indoor Champion as a 5-y-o; and jumping international 1.30 m as a 6-yo and international 1.40 m. as a 7-y-o (still a 7-y-o).

I do have, from my second crop, a gelding that is the 6y-o Millstreet Champion and represented Ireland at the WBFSH’s 6-Y-O World Breeding Championship for Young Jumping Horses. (still a 6-y-o)

I do have, from my third crop, an approved stallion (two studbooks) that represented the Netherlands at the Zwolle International Show and won the Future Stallion Showjumping Championship (still a 5-y-o).

What do you have to show (besides the parrot?).

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;3702623]
I would love to use him to be honest. I’m really only on about most registries decision in not approving anything which isn’t 16 hands or over. It’s not just Holsteiner, it’s most of the “big” Euro registries.

The horse should be in any major studbook considering his criteria.

And as always, GrayandArab, here’s a big eye roll righ back at you miss know it all breeder who doesn’t breed. I’m sick really of being nice to you and trying to be politically correct while you blast anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinion. Here, here’s another eye roll coming back at you, actually loads of them. Eye roll, eye roll, eye roll. For the love of Pete, get over it all ready.

Terri[/QUOTE]

I’ll tell you who’s nice – Daydream Believer, Fred, secretariat2, and omare. I’m sure I’ll think of some others later.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703098]
What you do not seem to understand is that words have meaning. Well at least for many of us, words have meaning. If you are going to write silly or incorrect things and then protest when your words are challenged perhaps you should take more care when composing your thoughts.

What the AHHA “needs” is rightfully determined on a policy level by the board. They made a decision. You object. Big deal. Don’t use Hickstead if you don’t want to. But instead you rail against the AHHA board, and others who think that maybe the issue is not as black-and-white as you see it, for their heterodoxy and heteropraxis to the breeding gospel according to Reece and Bonnie.

And again you write things that are inaccurate. AHHA horses do not “carry their (i.e., the Verband’s) brand”; AHHA horses are branded with the AHHA brand because they are American Holsteiners; they do not have the Verband’s brand. Further, the AHHA is not a “sister studbook” or a daughter studbook of the Verband. It is an independent legal person incorporated in the USA that has never quite figured out if it should serve the interests of US breeders by promoting American Holsteiners or if it should attempt to replicate what German breeders do, albeit that is an impossible task. That’s the fight as I see it. It is a fight between realists and dogmatists. Between people who have actually had some success breeding some competition horses and those that have this text-book notion of how breeding competition horses is done because they have talked to people in Germany (and probably in English!) and think they now have unlocked the door to success.[/QUOTE]

Unlike you, I am a member of this Assoc. and have every right to say anything I want about any decision the BOD makes. End of discussion.

Ok…so the Holsteiner brand is owned by the AHHA. it is still a Holsteiner brand with a little “N” and “A” on either side. As you say Tom…words mean something. “Holsteiner” means something and the Verband is going to protect what that word stands for and to what kind of animal wears said brand.

Worry about Tom’s studbook and what Tom is trying to breed. Leave the AHHA to those who have a vested interest.

[tom]

Yes, you have the right to say or write anything you want. We all do. Be it intelligent or stupid. True or false. Enlightened or banal.

But if what we write is stupid or false or banal then others have the right to challenge us.

If you are going to go on public boards and let fly then don’t get grumpy when you words are challenged.

If you don’t want to be challenged about what you write then keep a private diary. Don’t post your musings in a public forum.

And is “Leave the AHHA to those who have a vested interest” the best you can do? If so then follow your own advice and restrict your anti-AHHA rants to the AHHA bulletin board (if you have not been banned from it yet).

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703133]
For you and Bonnie the Verband’s stallion approval rules are theoretical. For me, they were experienced. That’s the difference.

Where did I say I bred Condios?

Where did I say I bred Ekstein?

Shall we go back to comparing the success, or lack thereof, of our respective breeding programs?

I do have, from my first crop, an approved stallion/international showjumper that also won a stallion competition in the Netherlands; was 4th at the Zwolle International Show, 4th at the Dublin Horse Show, and Ireland’s Indoor Champion as a 5-y-o; and jumping international 1.30 m as a 6-yo and international 1.40 m. as a 7-y-o (still a 7-y-o).

I do have, from my second crop, a gelding that is the 6y-o Millstreet Champion and represented Ireland at the WBFSH’s 6-Y-O World Breeding Championship for Young Jumping Horses. (still a 6-y-o)

I do have, from my third crop, an approved stallion (two studbooks) that represented the Netherlands at the Zwolle International Show and won the Future Stallion Showjumping Championship (still a 5-y-o).

What do you have to show (besides the parrot?).[/QUOTE]

I think you just showed everyone in the world your true nature , a big ol baby ! How sad.

You get called out a little bit and you resort to nastiness. Typical of someone who is losing the arguement and ALWAYS has to be right .

How did you get that job as writer for the magazine with such a miniscule amount of breeding experience ? I wonder if they even vetted you ? Hmmm… maybe an inquiry is in order ?

[tom]

I am still waiting to hear what you have produced.

Waiting…

Waiting…

And for the record, I did not ask for the role as breeding columnist; the editor approached me.

Maybe it is because I think words have meaning.

And I guessed a missed the part where I started losing this “argument”.

Perhaps you could ask a magazine to give you space each month to write on your novel approach of faith-based breeding (i.e., absolute and unquestioned faith in the wisdom, judgement, and prescience of the Verband). That would be a hoot.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703180]
Yes, you have the right to say or write anything you want. We all do. Be it intelligent or stupid. True or false. Enlightened or banal.

But if what we write is stupid or false or banal then others have the right to challenge us.

If you are going to go on public boards and let fly then don’t get grumpy when you words are challenged.

If you don’t want to be challenged about what you write then keep a private diary. Don’t post your musings in a public forum.

And is “Leave the AHHA to those who have a vested interest” the best you can do? If so then follow your own advice and restrict your anti-AHHA rants to the AHHA bulletin board (if you have not been banned from it yet).[/QUOTE]

Are you a moderator on this BB ? If not, then don’t tell me what to do.

Yet another statement from you that illustrates you have no idea as to what you are talking about. It’s hard to be banned from a board I’ve never even posted on.

[tom]

I’m sure you’ll find a way to make that happen.

And I repeat:
If you don’t want to be challenged about what you write then keep a private diary. Don’t post your musings in a public forum.

And I am still waiting…

[grayarabpony]

Tom – I have to say – your posts on this thread have been a joy to read. And I am being sincere.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703195]
I am still waiting to hear what you have produced.

Waiting…

Waiting…

And for the record, I did not ask for the role as breeding columnist; the editor approached me.

Maybe it is because I think words have meaning.

And I guessed a missed the part where I started losing this “argument”.

Perhaps you could ask a magazine to give you space each month to write on your novel approach of faith-based breeding (i.e., absolute and unquestioned faith in the wisdom, judgement, and prescience of the Verband). That would be a hoot.[/QUOTE]

I’ve produced the same as you…nothing but young horse accolades.

You didn’t miss the part where you started losing the arguement because that’s where you stepped in and exhibited your nasty nature.

I’m sure your magazine is truely proud of their childish representative and now the whole world knows that their “expert” , in house breeding columnist , has relatively no breeding experience.

I’ve enjoyed the interviews that you have conducted and written but do us all a favor and save the breeding articles to someone with a little more than 8 yrs breeding experience. The articles will carry a little more credibility that way.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

@tom;3703108

Reading comprehension, Bonnie, is a wonderful skill. Try acquiring it, please. What I said, on two occasions, using almost precisely the same language, was:

“that the KWPN sometimes, on the rare occasion, approves a stallion it has not inspected. I said it that was a good enough policy for the KWPN it might be a good enough policy for the AHHA…”.

Where did I see that the Verband follows the KWPN’s rules, or vice versa? Where did I say that the KWPN follows the AHHA’s rules, or vice versa?

I breed Holsteiners. I don’t care what the KWPN does… this is the point I was trying to get across. I have no reason to care whether or not the KWPN has a particular policy… they can approve whomever they wish, I don’t care. To tell us what they do as an example of we might do, is of no interest.

You involve yourself in things that don’t concern you. You’re not a member of the AHHA, yet you seem to think you have a better way of running things. Please get a hold of yourself. You’re ego is running away with your good sense! Your condescending posts are a little grating, to say the least.

If we did things your way Tom, the AHHA would no longer exist. Plain and simple.

Now, are you done yet? Could we get back to something more productive?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;3702508]
From what I can gather (and I am sure others with more knowlege will join in and or correct), size is an historical issue with the holsteiner breed which makes me think (and I was so told) that genetically there is a recessive(?) “small” (short legged?) gene that can pop up making them ever vigilant and aggressive about not encouraging that trait. Not only small stallions are undesirable, but a small mare at inspection will be given a special (undesirable) designation (cant remember the german word) that stays with her even if she later grows three inches and she can never be the mother of a stallion candidate (??). Anyway I am thinking size and perhaps waiting to avoid slow maturing animials may be a specific issue because of the specific more closed gene pool for the holst breed/registry and therefore maybe less of an issue in other breed/registries.[/QUOTE]

I need to look at the size of Hickstead’s parents, etc – it’d be interesting to know his family history with regard to size – but outcrossing would only help the Holsteiner with regard to undesirable recessives. And clearly, Hickstead can get the job done! :yes:

I would like to better understand the relationship/ differences between the KWPN and the NRPS (forgive me if I’ve screwed up the initials).

[tom]

@Bayhawk;3703254

I’ve produced the same as you…nothing but young horse accolades…

Please do tell. The same as me? Let’s hear about it.