Top 25 mare families in the world

[tom]

@ShowjumpersUSA;3703258

I breed Holsteiners. I don’t care what the KWPN does… this is the point I was trying to get across. I have no reason to care whether or not the KWPN has a particular policy… they can approve whomever they wish, I don’t care. To tell us what they do as an example of we might do, is of no interest.

You involve yourself in things that don’t concern you. You’re not a member of the AHHA, yet you seem to think you have a better way of running things. Please get a hold of yourself. You’re ego is running away with your good sense! Your condescending posts are a little grating, to say the least.

If we did things your way Tom, the AHHA would no longer exist. Plain and simple.

Now, are you done yet? Could we get back to something more productive?

Please read my posts directed to Reece about private diaries versus posting on a public forum.

Both you and Reece apparently never learned as school children that if you are going to throw a punch, physical or verbal, you’d better be prepared to take one, or two, in return. You both feel entitled to critique my breeding program, to denigrate others, to rail against people who do not agree with you rather unconventional views on breeding, and then you whine and protest when you are challenged.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

@grayarabpony;3703268

I need to look at the size of Hickstead’s parents, etc – it’d be interesting to know his family history with regard to size – but outcrossing would only help the Holsteiner with regard to undesirable recessives. And clearly, Hickstead can get the job done! :yes:

I would like to better understand the relationship/ differences between the KWPN and the NRPS (forgive me if I’ve screwed up the initials).

I’m not familiar with the Dutch Ridinghorse and Pony Studbook, but here is a link that gives their breeding focus:

http://www.inspo.com/breeding.htm

[ShowjumpersUSA]

@tom;3703303

Please read my posts directed to Reece about private diaries versus posting on a public forum.

Both you and Reece apparently never learned as school children that if you are going to throw a punch, physical or verbal, you’d better be prepared to take one, or two, in return. You both feel entitled to critique my breeding program, to denigrate others, to rail against people who do not agree with you rather unconventional views on breeding, and then you whine and protest when you are challenged.

Please, Tom. Get over yourself.

[tri]

The Holsteiner Verband is in complete control over what can be called a Holsteiner and what cannot.

Unfortunately, that is what the Oldenburg Verband thought too and look how that turned out. The holsteiner people have already fought one fight regarding the holsteiner brand. Personally, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of these brand fights with any of the registries.

I would like to better understand the relationship/ differences between the KWPN and the NRPS

Why on earth would anyone get into any kind of discussion with you? I am sure you will look it up and tell us how we are all idiots and you understand it better. BTW, my first KWPN mare would be 30 years old but she is dead and buried in back of my barn while her grandkids play in her old pasture.

[tom]

@grayarabpony;3703268

I need to look at the size of Hickstead’s parents, etc – it’d be interesting to know his family history with regard to size – but outcrossing would only help the Holsteiner with regard to undesirable recessives. And clearly, Hickstead can get the job done! :yes:

I would like to better understand the relationship/ differences between the KWPN and the NRPS (forgive me if I’ve screwed up the initials).

The KWPN and NRPS are both studbooks in the Netherlands. The KWPN allows foals sired by approved NRPS riding horse stallions to be put in Register A. The NRPS does not have the cache that the KWPN has and is not ranked very highly in the WBFSH rankings, although it has produced many good horses. The NRPS requires a minimum percent of TB or Arab blood in its stallions. It x-ray criteria are not as strict as the KWPN’s, although the KWPN’s criteria are probably stricter then the Verband’s and the KWPN is not as strict as many Americans think. (I think the KWPN’s criteria are perfectly reasonable.) But that is a entirely different discussion.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

It is unfortunate, but I think you might be right about that tri. We’ll see what happens. I hope we can get things sorted out sans lawsuits.

[3Dogs]

Good glory, guys, if y’all worked in my company, I would have said pick up the phone and WORK THIS OUT!

I am still perplexed at why a bunch of you have gotten your panties in such a wad?

What I have gleaned - maybe - from all this, (and some other interesting data) is:
(and I intersperse a few questions):

1. perhaps the list of top mare families is interesting and reliable to a point but there are selection biases in the way the data is collected.
2. there is some kerfuffle about Hickstead - and the AHHA - but dang, darn fine stallion, and since the top 5 in the Individual Show Jumping in Bejing were, I believe, all small, what is the issue with SMALL ?? Okay, don’t answer - just throwing it out there.
3. some here breed by strict breed “registry” guidelines, though I am hard pressed to understand this obsession with what is a “Holsteiner” given facts presented here that a Holsteiner is what the Verband “declares” is a Holsteiner and that could be a horse born a KWPN or a SF horse. What the ?? All right, clearly a touchy subject here, but really, reading through all this, I don’t get it, and I consider myself fairly brain endowed :lol:
4. last I read, a question was posed to Bayhawk and SJ: while a challenge, and not answered yet, is it pertinent at ALL to the question raised by the original post: ie, the great jumper motherlines?

Back to topic, can the list presented by Bayhawk be used as a starting place or is it’s validity too compromised by confounders? Is the list too affected by how certain registries capture data or even, what data IS captured?
I personally don’t care about the personal reliability/breeding prowess or success of offspring (although duly noted) of Bayhawk or SJ or Tom, just the list. And if this list has flaws, which I believe from what I read it does, does another source for information - I think fannie mae had some suggestions - make sense? Endlessly seeking information!

thank you friends

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=tom;3703303]
Please read my posts directed to Reece about private diaries versus posting on a public forum.

Both you and Reece apparently never learned as school children that if you are going to throw a punch, physical or verbal, you’d better be prepared to take one, or two, in return. You both feel entitled to critique my breeding program, to denigrate others, to rail against people who do not agree with you rather unconventional views on breeding, and then you whine and protest when you are challenged.[/QUOTE]

Who’s whining ? Who can’t take one on the chin as well as they can throw one ? Not me.

I haven’t critiqued your breeding program. I have in fact gave you congrats on your young horse successes while at the same time being realistic in my statement that you aren’t exactly setting the world on fire either. Who can’t deal with the reality ? It’s you Tom. You want to be percieved as some great breeder but in fact your oldest is only 7 years old and when I keep this in perspective for you…YOU whine about it.

Yes, you have had more early success than me but I harldy have put the number of horses on the ground as you have and my oldest is only 7 and he was 1 of only two foals that year. My biggest breeding year was 5 mares. You probably bred at least twice that every year you’ve been breeding. But this is hardly the issue…

We haven’t denigrated others either.

“Unconventional views”. I follow the breeding philosophy of the breeders in Holstein. They sit at or near the top of almost every ranking imaginable in the production of top jumping horses. I choose to follow their model. How is this view unconventional ?

Are you thru with this pissing contest yet ?

[Sakura_Hill_Farm]

3Dogs— it’s useless. They are “in the zone”.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Hey, 3Dogs, thanks for the reality check!

To answer the question, on a personal level, I can tell you how I use the list. It is an interesting tool that is a good starting place for me. If I am offered a mare from stamm 776, I can get a little excited about the prospect.

Before I get too excited, however, I have to look at her pedigree and see which branch of the stamm she is from. Then I have to look at what that particular branch of the stamm has produced; what the mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, etc., have produced. If that all looks good to me, I go see the mare and make a decision. I have some information that I consider before I ever look at the mare. What sparks my interest in her initially may be her motherline placement on the list.

I really don’t know how other people utilize the information on the list. I do think the methodology used to create the list could be improved upon.

[tom]

I have asked you several times to define “setting the world on fire”.

You decline to define.

You state that your accomplishments are similar to mine.

You decline to describe your accomplishments.

We’ve come full circle – now all of a sudden you are in love with denominators. I’m glad! I’d have to go back and reconstruct what was produced in my first three years but those crops were very small. Since I believe in the power of denominators I would be happy to do that for you. I suspect my numbers are very similar to yours in first three crops (2001 - 2003).

[tri]

I think a more interesting discussion would be to get that list going of horses competing in the U.S. at say, the mini-prix level and up - analyze those bloodlines, see if we can come up with some common denominators and actually KNOW what is working here in the U.S.

We could then compare that to Reece’s top 25 list and see if there are any surprizes or not.

[omare]

I am hoping and bettin that USA breeders have developed (and are developing) their own USA based sporthorse mare lines… but they may be too diverse to reach the critical mass to ever get on The List-at least for many years. For example, off the top of my head-Thomas Edison is a USA bred xx jumping GP and I think a younger sibling is also already showing great promise; recently there has been two Abdullah mares that have produced USA bred GP horses respectively (the one I can remember off the top of my head is Blue Danube by Pearl Peak (Abdullah)-with younger siblings coming up the ranks); Gem twist’s sister also has a son competing in GP (by Olisco?) For sure, I doubt any of these have the same mare source.

(by chance an interesting article I found examining a particular xx family in sport http://www.ctba.com/00magazine/aug00/news2.htm)

[3Dogs]

ha, well, I picked three “mini” pris - $25,000 grand classes - maybe not so “mini” -

one in St Louis, one at West Palm and one at Thermal.

Winner in St. Louis: Happy Z: out of Anais Anais Z, an Air Jordan Z mare out of Two Fabiola, a Darco mare.

West Palm Beach: winner Nerina: out of Jerina who must be a Dutch mare but couldn’t find out breeding

Thermal: haha: Winner: Gerry the Gray. USEF site lists the dam as “Hauptstutbuch” LOL

a lot of work to do this - we have to be able to figure out how to collate this data :lol::lol:

[PineTreeFarm]

The USEF GP leading horse list is quite long. Over 700 horses.

I looked at a few near the top of the list.
#31
GRACE
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: GUILTY CONSCIENCE
Dam: SO SAY YOU ALL
Breed: THOROUGHBRED

Doesn’t list a breeder but I’m sure was bred in the USA, maybe for the track.

#47 by South PAcific
SOUTHERN PRIDE
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: SOUTH PACIFIC
Dam: UNKNOWN
Breed: HOLSTEINER

Because it’s by South Pacific it’s lilely domestic

57

TAMINO
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: ANIMO ELITE
Dam: UNKNOWN
Breed: ANGLO AMERICAN

Selected it just because it lists the breed as Anglo American

62

APACHE
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: MESCALARO
Dam: ESCADA
Breed: SELLE FRANCAIS/TB
Breeder: LU THOMAS

#68
INDY STAR II
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: QUICK STAR
Dam: CALANDA
Breed: SELLE FRANCAIS
Breeder: MIDA FARM (US

#75
BLUE DANUBE
$25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX)
Sire: HAMAR 89.2371
Dam: PEARL PEAK
Breed: TRAKEHNER / X
Breeder: TATRA FARM

I’m sure there are more but once you go below the top 100 or so the amount of total $ won for the year is below $25000 and that’s what I selected as a cutoff $ amount.

[Bayhawk]

This is a good start for talking points but we must know the mare families and that dreaded “unknown” will kill everything.

Also, the horses listed as contributing to the top ranked mare families are nearly all , if not all, European bred horses. It will be interesting to see if any American bred horses pop up here in the Grand Prix ring out of any of those families.

If ya’ll can find them , I will cross reference them to the pertinent mare lines listed in the top 25 rankings and see if we can discover a match(s).

[tri]

Regarding Southern Pride - from The Oaks:

[/quote]
Ocean I’s brothers and sisters-in-blood have won and consistently placed in all levels of jumper competition, the Hunter Divisions, and the International Jumper Futurity. They include, among others, Grand Prix winner South Shore, Grand Prix placed Surprise, Derby winner Sydney, and Jumper Champions Lu Lu Belle, Southern Flight, Sahara, Sierra, Giselle, Southern Breeze, Sea Spray, Shaman, South Beach, Superman, Saveur de Cour, Southern Crown, and Southern Pride; the 2003 National PHR Silver Stirrup Champion and Reserve Six-Year-Old Jumpers Samoan Chief and Sail Away; the 2000 IJF Western Most Grand Prix Potential Champion South Bay;
[/quote]

I don’t think Southern Pride is a FULL sibling. If so, then the dam would be Rene by Ramzes out of Rageda.

I bet there are more horses from The Oaks that are up at the levels and I bet they could say who the dam is.

[tri]

Apache, ahhh, Richard Spooner’s horse - Richard bought Apache when he was 5 years old and, wonders of all! - brought him up the ranks. (also bought another horse from holland about the same time - a 4 year old)

Richard Spooner has a lot of horses and he, wonders again! actually has foals in his barn that he has bought from bloodlines he likes to be his future GP horses.

[3Dogs]

that Richard - he does wonders with horses -
I think I am in love with ACE - who is out of Umina, stamm 5302

wooohaw what a nice horse

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=tri;3703316]

Why on earth would anyone get into any kind of discussion with you? I am sure you will look it up and tell us how we are all idiots and you understand it better. BTW, my first KWPN mare would be 30 years old but she is dead and buried in back of my barn while her grandkids play in her old pasture.[/QUOTE]

If in the past I have told any of you that you are idiots it was well-deserved. At any rate, the question wasn’t aimed at you. You don’t even seem to understand any of the ins and outs of registering and approving young horses, even though supposedly you’ve been breeding warmbloods for years. So what if you’ve been breeding for years, anyway? A lot of breeders breed for years without a clue as to what they are doing. You don’t win a special badge just for breeding, and it sure as heck doesn’t make you any smarter.

Why don’t you do us both a favor and put me on ignore. I promise I won’t miss you.

As for you Terri, your post was childish. In addition, you haven’t been that nice, and I don’t even know where you got the idea that you are.