Top Dressage Breeding Mares/Mare lines in North America

[DownYonder]

I think that may be true to a certain extent, but if stallions didn’t improve movement on their foals, certain stallions would not have become quite as well known and popular as they were/are.

Feiner Stern was known in his time to help improve movement. Jazz is known for improving gait mechanics. Ferro was known for improving hind end mechanics. Sandro Hit is known for improving gait mechanics. Many breeders using Totilas are hoping he can pass on the scopeyness in his gaits. And many stallions are known for passing on the flatter movement desired by hunter aficionados.

There is also the school of thought that dams help influence movement through behavior. If the mare is not a big, expansive mover, the foal isn’t going to have a lot of incentive to be a big wowser mover, esp. when young and wanting to stick close to mama’s side. Conversely, a foal with a big moving dam will learn to use “everything it has” to keep up with her.

[stoicfish]

Not sure you understood my question. I was not doubting the importance of the dam line, I was questioning your statement about mitochondrial DNA and it being responsible for the transmission of gaits and overall quality.

Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post

This is probably obvious, but I’ll say it anyway since stallions have been mentioned. We have to remember that a stallion will not continue a mare line. So while I think it’s very good to use stallions out of a strong dam line, it’s not the same as using a mare with a strong dam line. I for one believe strong mare lines continue through daughters due to the mitrochrondrial DNA that is only passed along the direct mother line. A stallion can’t pass this along.

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7762241]
If you have membership to the Hanoverian dam line database, you’ll see the importance of a good dam line. Some dam lines have produced 10x’s the amount of stallions than the average dam line even though the genetic relation to one another may be 5x’s or more removed from the original mare.

I’ve taken enough pictures of mares with foals by their sides at inspections to see a trend where the foals movement typically matches the mare’s movement. It’s rare to take a picture and think the foal took more from the stallion. Look at these two still pictures I took. They show the foals with their dams trotting side by side. The foal’s movement very closely resembles the mare’s.

When the mare’s foal(S) all move nearly identical to their dam time and time again, is when it appears more than a genetic coincidence; that IMO is the dam line speaking. So you better like your mare’s movement because the foal has a high probability of moving like her. I do think the stallion has some influence, but IMO, the dam is a much larger part of the equation so you better be using one with movement you wouldn’t mind getting again.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m245/backinthesaddle_2006/rubiandfoal_zps1e415ad7.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m245/backinthesaddle_2006/mareandfoal_zps5399f692.jpg[/QUOTE]

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7755768]
This is probably obvious, but I’ll say it anyway since stallions have been mentioned. We have to remember that a stallion will not continue a mare line. So while I think it’s very good to use stallions out of a strong dam line, it’s not the same as using a mare with a strong dam line. I for one believe strong mare lines continue through daughters due to the mitrochrondrial DNA that is only passed along the direct mother line. A stallion can’t pass this along.[/QUOTE]

Was driving and thinking about horses, which actually might be more distracted then using a cell phone

Something else was bugging me about this statement and it popped into my mind why (not picking on you, just that it was brought up ).
So of course xx is a female and xy is a male. A male must receive the y from his sire and the x from his dam. When he has a daughter, he passes the x on to her.

Here is the kicker, with a stallion the x is not recombined (mixed) with another x, cause he only has one x. Therefore, this x is straight up a piece of his dam’s genetics. Probably one of the truest forms of straight transfer of genetic material from 2 generations back. That x (filly) will carry an identical copy of the grand dam genes (sire side). In 100% of all of that stallion’s female offspring.

In comparison, the mare has two x’s, one from her sire and one from her dam. When she passes on an x (the only thing she can pass on), her x’s will/may recombine. So theoretically she will more likely pass on a x that is 50% of her sire and 50% of her dam*. Compare this to the stallion, who will directly pass on an exact copy of his dam’s x to all of his daughters, 100% of the time.

The moral of the story is that a stallion can transmit the dam line better than a mare. X chromosomes hold way more genetic material then the mtdna.
This also is the reason why you should use sex balanced line breeding with the stallion to reinforce a dam line. Pick a stallion that has a very successful dam line to keep a good dam line and even better if it is the same line.

*Apparently x chromosomes may recombine differently.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7766172]
Was driving and thinking about horses, which actually might be more distracted then using a cell phone

Something else was bugging me about this statement and it popped into my mind why (not picking on you, just that it was brought up ).
So of course xx is a female and xy is a male. A male must receive the y from his sire and the x from his dam. When he has a daughter, he passes the x on to her.

Here is the kicker, with a stallion the x is not recombined (mixed) with another x, cause he only has one x. Therefore, this x is straight up a piece of his dam’s genetics. Probably one of the truest forms of straight transfer of genetic material from 2 generations back. That x (filly) will carry an identical copy of the grand dam genes (sire side). In 100% of all of that stallion’s female offspring.

In comparison, the mare has two x’s, one from her sire and one from her dam. When she passes on an x (the only thing she can pass on), her x’s will/may recombine. So theoretically she will more likely pass on a x that is 50% of her sire and 50% of her dam*. Compare this to the stallion, who will directly pass on an exact copy of his dam’s x to all of his daughters, 100% of the time.

The moral of the story is that a stallion can transmit the dam line better than a mare. X chromosomes hold way more genetic material then the mtdna.
This also is the reason why you should use sex balanced line breeding with the stallion to reinforce a dam line. Pick a stallion that has a very successful dam line to keep a good dam line and even better if it is the same line.

*Apparently x chromosomes may recombine differently.[/QUOTE]

This is very true and also important factor in a male line. The Y gene can only come from the sire. Hence, every male through a lineage has the EXACT SAME y-chromosome. Of course over time there will be natural mutations to the Y-chromosome as it is passed from generation to generation, but generally speaking it is the same. That is why when studying human population descendants they study the genetics of males.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7766172]
The moral of the story is that a stallion can transmit the dam line better than a mare.[/QUOTE]

I suggest rethinking this.

First, the x chromosome and the y chromosome together code the sex of the horse. As noted, males can pass either x or y, with odds of each being 50%, with the y being from the male’s father and the x being from the male’s mother. Females possess either of two x’s, with the odds being 50% from the female’s father and 50% from the female’s mother. On my calculator, that means a female offspring receives the father’s mother’s x chromosome 50% of the time (the other 50% of the time resulting in a colt) and the mother’s mother’s x chromosome 50% of the time (the other 50% being the father’s mother’s x chromosome) - identical odds for a female parent to carry on the dam line as a male parent. The only moral of the story is that you can say with 100% certainty that half the genetic material for determining the female’s sex came from the father’s mother.

Further, unless there are sex-linked traits, this discussion of a dam line merely refers to the genetic material for determining sex of the offspring and not to any other of the gazillion genetic traits or combinations thereof. So not sure that this “back of the envelope analysis” has any merit in discussing which parent is best to transmit a dam line.

[Midwest_girl_in_an_E]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7767508]
I suggest rethinking this. [/QUOTE]

I would further add…

Don’t forget about the other 31 pairs of chromosomes. Not all genetic material is on the sex chromosome.
And to make this all more baffling- a very small portion of chromosomes is actually devoted to genes (I think in people only2-3%); the rest can control turning genes on and off and probably a lot of other things we don’t know yet!

[out_west]

Actually some slight miscalculations above. A female offspring receives the fathers’ mothers X chromosome 100% of the time. There would not be pure transmission of the mothers’ mothers chromosome, because the mother has 2 X chromosomes, and therefore exchange of material between the 2 X’s would occur.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7767508]
I suggest rethinking this.

First, the x chromosome and the y chromosome together code the sex of the horse. As noted, males can pass either x or y, with odds of each being 50%, with the y being from the male’s father and the x being from the male’s mother. Females possess either of two x’s, with the odds being 50% from the female’s father and 50% from the female’s mother. On my calculator, that means a female offspring receives the father’s mother’s x chromosome 50% of the time (the other 50% of the time resulting in a colt) and the mother’s mother’s x chromosome 50% of the time (the other 50% being the father’s mother’s x chromosome) - identical odds for a female parent to carry on the dam line as a male parent. The only moral of the story is that you can say with 100% certainty that half the genetic material for determining the female’s sex came from the father’s mother.

Further, unless there are sex-linked traits, this discussion of a dam line merely refers to the genetic material for determining sex of the offspring and not to any other of the gazillion genetic traits or combinations thereof. So not sure that this “back of the envelope analysis” has any merit in discussing which parent is best to transmit a dam line.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. We were speaking of dam lines and I said the stallion will pass on his dam’s X chrom. 100% of the time to his female offspring. It would be a 50% of the time to all of his offsping if he had a 50/50 spilt of fillies and colts. You don’t use 50% when speaking of his female offspring. It is always 100%.
And the x chromosome is soo much more than just a sex chromosome. Y is a smaller, modification chromosome. Obviously as females work fine with out one (I guess this may be debatable).

But the X is not simply a version of y, it is part of the basic body plan. If you look up everything the x does, it is extensive. Up to 10% of the genes are on the x. This is genes, not base pairs. So the active material.
Then the stallion also has a chance of throwing 50% or more of the rest of his dam genetics to his female offspring. He can statistically throw more of his dam into a filly, then the mare can.

I did not mean that the stallion is more important then a mare for dam line, but it is the one way you have direct transmission of genes from two generations back. It is important.
Plus, by the same logic, the resulting filly in the “dam line” will be genetically be half of her sire, regardless of how much we see the mare in the offspring. There are several local stallions that I can almost always pick out the offspring in a group. I guess that is more of a human perspective, we see things we look for. If you look at the mare everyday, you will probably see more of the mare in the foals and not see as much of the stallion. I bet stallion owners really see their boy in the offspring.
The reality of the dam line is that the stallions will be as much of the equation as the mares.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7767731]
Wrong. We were speaking of dam lines and I said the stallion will pass on his dam’s X chrom. 100% of the time to his female offspring.[/QUOTE]

My apologies – I misspoke when I said “a female offspring receives the father’s mother’s x chromosome 50% of the time.” I meant to say simply “offspring” rather than “female offspring.” Maybe it would have been more clear to say “The stallion contributes 100% of his mother’s x chromosome to his offspring 50% of the time.”

Nonetheless, you can’t compare 50% of the stallion’s potential contribution (by eliminating the male offspring) with 100% of the mare’s potential contribution to conclude that the stallion is a better transmitter of the dam line. This is apples to oranges. I suggest that all that can be concluded is that if the offspring is a filly, one of that filly’s x chromosomes came from the stallion’s mother.

@stoicfish;7767731

Then the stallion also has a chance of throwing 50% or more of the rest of his dam genetics to his female offspring. He can statistically throw more of his dam into a filly, then the mare can.

Please support this statement with the “statistics.” My understanding is, again, absent sex-linked traits, each of the chromosomes of either parent has a 50% chance of being transmitted to the offspring. Not sure how statistics support the “or more.”

[out_west]

Actually not accurate. The chromosomes that a stallion or mare pass to their offspring are not strictly from one parent or the other. During the formation of egg or sperm, paired chromosomes unite and genetic material is exchanged, so called crossing over. This occurs prior to the chromosomes separating and assorting into the final product (egg or sperm). So it is possible for more genetic material from one grandparent to end up in the offspring.

[out_west]

deleted. Made it too confusing.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=out west;7768278]
Actually not accurate. The chromosomes that a stallion or mare pass to their offspring are not strictly from one parent or the other. During the formation of egg or sperm, paired chromosomes unite and genetic material is exchanged, so called crossing over. This occurs prior to the chromosomes separating and assorting into the final product (egg or sperm). So it is possible for more genetic material from one grandparent to end up in the offspring.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but wrong. A stallion has only one copy of the x, so there is no crossing over. That was my point in bringing this up.

Please support this statement with the “statistics.” My understanding is, again, absent sex-linked traits, each of the chromosomes of either parent has a 50% chance of being transmitted to the offspring. Not sure how statistics support the “or more.”

Each parent has a 100% chance of transmitting 32 chromosomes to their offspring. Offspring receive a full copy from each parent, in horses that is 32. Therefore each parent is responsible for half of the total amount, since there are two copies of everything the total being 64 but half are redundant. Each parent is responsible for 50% of the total. There is no 50% chance of transmission when speaking of what each parent donates, it is 50% of the total.
Your are confusing transmission percentages with population percentages.

It is if you try and calculate what each grand parent donated to a grand offspring, that is when you can loosely use the 25%. But it can be more or less. However, with the X chromosome, this is bumped up because of the non cross over transition of the x.

Nonetheless, you can’t compare 50% of the stallion’s potential contribution (by eliminating the male offspring) with 100% of the mare’s potential contribution to conclude that the stallion is a better transmitter of the dam line.

Your not thinking about this correctly. First of all we only need to speak of female offspring as there has never been a stallion that was someone’s dam. Secondly, the dam does not contribute 100% to her female offspring. That would be a clone.
She, like the stallion, contribute about 50% (the mit. dna is the about) of the dna. But with the stallion, there is 10% that is directly transmitted from the stallions dam. So the stallion can actually transmit more directly the genetics of his dam then a mare can.
This isn’t about stats, it is realizing how the inheritance works. Stats would come into view when you consider population genetics.
I am comparing directly the genetic information a dam can transmit from her dam, compared to how much a stallion can contribute from his dam - to a female offspring.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7768516]
Your not thinking about this correctly.[/QUOTE]

I am thinking about this correctly; I just don’t agree with the way you think about it. There is a difference. This is your original statement with which I have taken issue:

@stoicfish;7766172

The moral of the story is that a stallion can transmit the dam line better than a mare.

At face value, this statement is simply not true. If you would like to revise this statement to say “The moral of story is that a stallion can transmit the x-chromosome of his dam line to his female offspring better than a mare can transmit the x-chromosome of her dam line to her female offspring” then I can agree.

@stoicfish;7766172

First of all we only need to speak of female offspring as there has never been a stallion that was someone’s dam.

Your original statement was not caveated solely toward female offspring; instead, it reads toward the stallion’s offspring generally - “the stallion transmits…” The mare will always “transmit” an X chromosome to her offspring but the stallion will “transmit” an X chromosome to his offspring only 50% of the time - an apples to oranges comparison.

@stoicfish;7766172

Secondly, the dam does not contribute 100% to her female offspring. That would be a clone.

Again, the dam contributes an X chromosome to her offspring 100% of the time. In other words, her potential contribution to her offspring is an X chromosome (one or other of the pair - I never said both) 100% of the time. I did not say 100% of her genetic material is contributed (e.g. a clone). A stallion’s potential contribution of an X chromosome occurs only 50% of the time.

@stoicfish;7766172

So the stallion can actually transmit more directly the genetics of his dam then a mare can.

Again, on its face, incorrect. The stallion can transmit more directly the X chromosome of his dam to his daughters then a mare can. There is more to “the genetics of his dam” than simply the X chromosome. And there are more offspring of a stallion than simply females.

@stoicfish;7766172

This isn’t about stats, it is realizing how the inheritance works. Stats would come into view when you consider population genetics.

You’re the one who used the term “statistically;” I merely asked you to support the statement.

@stoicfish;7766172

I am comparing directly the genetic information a dam can transmit from her dam, compared to how much a stallion can contribute from his dam - to a female offspring.

And that genetic information referenced in your comparison appears to be limited to the X chromosome and does not take into account the rest of the genetic information.

[stoicfish]

Your original statement was not caveated solely toward female offspring; instead, it reads toward the stallion’s offspring generally - “the stallion transmits…” The mare will always “transmit” an X chromosome to her offspring but the stallion will “transmit” an X chromosome to his offspring only 50% of the time - an apples to oranges comparison

My original quotes

Here is the kicker, with a stallion the x is not recombined (mixed) with another x, cause he only has one x. Therefore, this x is straight up a piece of his dam’s genetics. Probably one of the truest forms of straight transfer of genetic material from 2 generations back. That x (filly) will carry an identical copy of the grand dam genes (sire side). In 100% of all of that stallion’s female offspring.

Wrong. We were speaking of dam lines and I said the stallion will pass on his dam’s X chrom. 100% of the time to his female offspring. It would be a 50% of the time to all of his offsping if he had a 50/50 spilt of fillies and colts. You don’t use 50% when speaking of his female offspring. It is always 100%.

I really like this topic but am getting frustrated. All you had to do was scroll up to check and there it is. I clearly stated that it was the female offspring. This is not rude but I am guessing you are not familiar with the topic and are struggling to find meaning in what I said. Plus there is a troll element here. You asked in quotes for stats.

Please support this statement with the “statistics.” My understanding is, again, absent sex-linked traits, each of the chromosomes of either parent has a 50% chance of being transmitted to the offspring. Not sure how statistics support the “or more.”
then full quote from above “You’re the one who used the term “statistically;” I merely asked you to support the statement.”
Stats are used when you try and characterize something that has variation. The percentages I did give in my previous posts where not stats, they were percentages. What I did say is that overall, the stallion can statiscally donate more of the his dam, compared to a mare because of the x chromosome transmission. You have to understand, which I think you don’t that the stallion has a 10% advantage up front of directly passing on his dams genetics. Of course he is the rest is the same, just like the mare that the other 90 percent will undergo recombination. But there is still a 10% advantage off the top. That is where the statement that the stallion has a better method of transmitting a grand dam genetics to a stallions female offspring, female being the ones in a dam line. Once again 10% advantage. Of course in a population you will see the stallion be the better transmitter of a grand dam’s genetics.

Again, on its face, incorrect. The stallion can transmit more directly the X chromosome of his dam to his daughters then a mare can. There is more to “the genetics of his dam” than simply the X chromosome. And there are more offspring of a stallion than simply females.

You keep bring up the stallions male offspring which really show you are missing the point in a huge way, are not familiar with the topic and have no wish to learn. And I have no urge to discuss this with someone who is not making sense and arguing for the sake for arguing. Sometimes these discussion can be educational but you keep getting stuck on really silly things like the fact that I am talking about the stallion passing on the X chromosome and I am leaving out the male offspring… right. Have a good day, but I will no longer respond to your posts.

[out_west]

Stoicfish, I wasn’t speaking of the X chromosome from the sire when discussing crossing over. You need a pair of chromosomes to have crossing over. I was just stating with any PAIRED chromosome, the chromosome a parent passes to an offspring is not identical to the chromosome that same parent inherited from its sire or dam. The only chromosome that is inherited without crossing over, and therefore essentially identical to that the parent inherited, is the X from the sire. If you read post 27 it would have been clear. My point was that since (with the exception of the X in the male), chromosomes exchange material and are not identical to those that were inherited, and since each sperm or ovum gets a random chance of either grandparents chromosome for each numbered chromosome, then an individual can get a greater percent of the genetic material from grandsire or granddam.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=out west;7768278]
Actually not accurate. The chromosomes that a stallion or mare pass to their offspring are not strictly from one parent or the other. During the formation of egg or sperm, paired chromosomes unite and genetic material is exchanged, so called crossing over. This occurs prior to the chromosomes separating and assorting into the final product (egg or sperm). So it is possible for more genetic material from one grandparent to end up in the offspring.[/QUOTE]

Well, except for the mito and the x chromosome and that is kind of an important part of the conversation. And my whole point. In fact that was part of my original explanation, that the x is unique coming from the sire because it does not undergo recombination. You did have it right in the previous post so I understand where you are coming from.

outwest, for the sake of discussion, assume I have a minor in genetics. Then we can discuss the implications of this and not have to go over the 101 parts. I find the topic interesting and think it has great relevance to breeders.

[Lilly]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7769074]
Well, except for the mito and the x chromosome and that is kind of an important part of the conversation. And my whole point. In fact that was part of my original explanation, that the x is unique coming from the sire because it does not undergo recombination. You did have it right in the previous post so I understand where you are coming from.

outwest, for the sake of discussion, assume I have a minor in genetics. Then we can discuss the implications of this and not have to go over the 101 parts. I find the topic interesting and think it has great relevance to breeders.[/QUOTE]

It sounds like you need the 101 parts.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Lilly;7769114]
It sounds like you need the 101 parts.[/QUOTE]

How so Lilly?

Is Lilly an alter perhaps? Just noticed that many/most of Lilly’s posts are non-horse related posts in Off topic.
I don’t mind discussing the topic with people that are sincerely interested.

[stoicfish]

It is my opinion that the phenomenon known as an exceptional broodmare sire is a stallion who carries that gene. His sons can’t inherit it, but his daughters can. And so can their offspring. Therefore, his daughters’ sons are given the potential to significantly outperform his own sons.

From: http://www.spiletta.com/UTHOF/hippology/xfactor.html

This brings the terms broodmare sire into the discussion. Why do some stallions fail to pass on anything great to their sons but are famous for their daughter? The x chromosome.
It would be interesting to go through the famous broodmare sires and see
their dam lines and their sires.

Once again, just challenging the notion that dam lines are only created and maintained by the females. That the stallion choices may have a greater influence to hold the desired traits then the dam in the dam line. You need both of course.

Another example, http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10490513
look at the sex balance line breeding of the Abiza. She had a chance to pass on her x’s through the dam and sire of the horse in question. Sex balancing is based on the x’s. Otherwise you could just line breed to the mare and not worry about where it came from.

[chemteach]

Lilly, Stoichfish is correct. X and Y crossing over in mammals only occurs in humans, at least that is how I have always been taught. Mitochondrial DNA codes for making more mitochondria; hard to believe that has anything to do with movement since its function is to provide energy to the cell. Mitochondria is solely inherited from the female parent. Remember the nasty little sperm only dumps his DNA (sort of like some male humans). Out West is also correct in the crossing over in the other 31 pairs. My two cents worth.