Top eventer biffs: "just a flesh wound!"

[Pennywell_Bay]

This will be interesting to hear. IMO, you don’t necessarily need to fall off a horse or a simulated horse to learn “tuck and roll”. There are MUCH safer ways with little impact so your brain doesn’t get shook around.

Take tumbling - just doing a sommersault. Most adults would be clunky and awakward and have to think about it. Just practicing and stretch those muscles aid in it. There is a reason people train the emergency dismount at a walk- always easier to learn when you are more flexible as a kid.

I can think of many excercizes on the ground that would aid in “land safe” and not risk any injury or jostling your brain.

[emeraldcity]

This is half of a Landsafe clinic- somersaults/shoulder rolls/tumbling on mats. I hadn’t done any of that in probably 25+ years, I definitely had a moment on the way to my first of like wait… how do I do a somersault?

The other half uses the mechanical horse, but you don’t do those as many times because it takes longer to run through each participant.

[gardenie]

I have listened to a couple of podcasts by Danny Warrington, the founder of LandSafe, and he did say he has watched videos of graduates who thought they did nothing in a fall, and they actually did look and protect their heads. So antidotally it appears the course does develop reaction time and muscle memory. Others were aware of what was happening in the fall and were able to use the program to protect their heads. All thanked him for the program. The biggest thing he talks about is it is better to break your arm than break your head. He would like people to take it more than once. (21) Office Hours with Danny Warrington, Rider Falls: Myths & Education - YouTube

[RAyers]

The issue Em and I have is with people who already have TBIs. Just doing the Landsafe clinic could possibly cause secondary impact responses. In other words, if there is already a lesion, even landing on a pad could exacerbate the lesion. The responsibility would for participants to already be aware of their status.

[Xctrygirl]

@gardenie

He would like people to take it more than once.

And being the cynic that I am I can’t help but think of the profit that increases when people do take this multiple times. Wouldn’t you want people to buy more of your product also???

Em

[gardenie]

That’s always true, profit is a motive. However, he discusses in the podcast that he feels like he barely scratches the surface on the first go round. Alot of info in a short period of time. You take more than one clinic with someone you like, right? And one lesson doesn’t make a rider.

[Xctrygirl]

I guess I have a little trouble because neither Danny nor his wife have the credentials to make me think this whole thing is valid. No study, that I am aware of, exists to prove there is a sound scientific, neuropathic or physio benefit. (Please point me to any if they exist beyond my ability to find)

In broader terms as an outsider looking in, a few things stand out.

1. There’s very little ability to “prove” this works.

2. There’s only them doing this, to this point, no one else thinks this is such a fabulous idea that they should also join the party and do these clinics with their own funds invested in the materials and devices needed.

3. (this one is my own opinion) It feels like a yearly carnival that comes to town, takes your money and they leave with more in their pockets and you literally have 0 you can demonstrably show for the time and money invested. Beyond falling on a mattress on purpose and tucking more. Which in an accident you may or may not do when it counts. I mean if you fall splay eagle, do they give you a refund?

Not a fan. And my neurologists thoughts cemented my own aversions to the principles of it.

Em

[gardenie]

I get what you are saying. I have not taken the course myself, only know what I’ve heard. I am in my 60’s, learned how to tumble in gymnastics class, took self-defense courses and went to airborne school in the Army years ago. I do know people freeze and don’t have sound plans or practice on how to protect themselves in a fall. And really should get some knowledge of how to do that in an emergency. Don’t know if Danny has the answers. Apparently, he and his crew have spent a good bit of time studying these rotational falls and claim that many of the catastrophic ones the riders did nothing to attempt to get out of the way. He also says if you don’t want to take his course, at least take some type of class that includes learning how to manage your own body in the air, judo, self defense, gymnastics etc. Being fit is a good protection for your body.

1. (this one is my own opinion) It feels like a yearly carnival that comes to town, takes your money and they leave with more in their pockets and you literally have 0 you can demonstrably show for the time and money invested. Beyond falling on a mattress on purpose and tucking more. Which in an accident you may or may not do when it counts. I mean if you fall splay eagle, do they give you a refund?

Does your riding instructor coach give you a refund if you get eliminated xc?

There are no guarantees in life. It’s a program to help people if they want it. I can see if you have already been concussed it probably isn’t a good idea to participate, but then should you be riding anyway?
I will see what I can dig up on “successes.”

[punchy]

Shrug. I think it makes sense to do how-to-fall clinics. I don’t begrudge the people who have a business running those clinics or the people who are interested. Your own medical history and personal convo with your neuro doc is your own business. People who want to take a how-to-fall clinic, theirs.

[CHT]

There was a barn here that taught how to fall/tuck and roll, and the students I got from that barn were much quicker to think about falling instead of staying on, and would come off during situations they were likely very capable of remaining on and salvaging. (So I am not a fan of how to fall clinics)

[anon29046226]

I think it depends. Decades ago I did one at my then barn that the trainers set up with a local nationally recognized vaulting barn.

I didn’t learn to bail, I learned how to bail when I needed to. I don’t doubt the people advertising these things create poor riders who just bail, but many moons ago it taught me how to fall. It became invaluable to me when I made the decision to bail or I realized I was flying through the air.

[chestnutmarebeware]

I agree with everything @RAyers has been saying.

And no one has brought up the Talk-and-Die (or sometimes Walk-and-Die) syndrome, where brain swelling takes a longer period to manifest, leading to a mistaken belief that the person is okay.

People assume they’re fine after the fall because they show no immediate symptoms then they lapse into unconsciousness and usually die later on. I believe that this is what happened to Natasha Richardson when she died on a ski trip.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@chestnutmarebeware

I believe that this is what happened to Natasha Richardson when she died on a ski trip

Its is. She also insisted she was fine, declined going to get medical service, walked away. Then a few hours later the headache came on. Brain dead within 48 hours (or that is when they called it).

[Darkwave]

Anecdotal, but relevant here. Just 2 weeks ago I had a friend who bumped his head while doing some repairs around the house. Cut his head so there was some bleeding, but felt otherwise fine.

A day or so later he developed a headache. That headache hung around for 2 days, and then got really intense. At that point, thankfully, he went to the ER.

Turned out that he had a brain bleed. Two emergency surgeries later, he’s well on his way to recovery. But really scary stuff.

Moral of the story is - take bad headaches seriously, especially if they were preceded by a blow to the head, even a mild one.

[Willesdon]

There has been some discussion in the UK about taking a video, if available, of the incident or accident whenever attending a hospital emergency room. Then the medics can have some real idea of what happened. Riders tend to use one language “I fell off my horse” when other people might say something like “she was travelling at 20 mph and suddenly fell six feet, head first, onto hard ground”.

Not related to horses , I once witnessed a women getting hit by a car. She stepped out in front of a travelling vehicle and bounced off onto the road. We called the ambulance and I stayed with her as she repeatedly said “I’m fine, I just want to go home, I’m fine, my flatmates will look after me”. I wouldn’t allow her to go, keeping her talking and distracted quntil the ambulance arrived. Her response to questions by the medic was “I’m fine, I just want to go home” and as she was upright, not bleeding and appeared to have all her wits the medic was inclined to let her go. I suggested he go and look at the car. He returned and promptly scooped her up into the ambulance. The vehicle had a perfect person shape impressed on the windscreen and the hood.

She was a Canadian student in London and had looked the wrong way before crossing because we drive on the opposite side of the road. The driver was a young man with fast reflexes and by his prompt emergency stop prevented further injury.

[Marigold]

@Marigold

I fully admit I planned on going home - a friend called my partner because he didn’t want me driving, and my partner told me that he’d take me wherever I wanted but would never forgive me if I woke up dead…so I went to the hospital

@chestnutmarebeware

And no one has brought up the Talk-and-Die (or sometimes Walk-and-Die) syndrome, where brain swelling takes a longer period to manifest, leading to a mistaken belief that the person is okay.

People assume they’re fine after the fall because they show no immediate symptoms then they lapse into unconsciousness and usually die later on. I believe that this is what happened to Natasha Richardson when she died on a ski trip.

That’s exactly what my partner was referencing when he said he’d “never forgive me if I woke up dead”. He even used her name to make the point. I didn’t think I needed to, but I went to the hospital. In that particular incident I was cleared, but it was definitely the right call.

[chestnutmarebeware]

Good for your partner and good for you for listening!

[Hilary]

Interesting about the landsafe clinic being a poor idea for someone with a head injury. I did the clinic several years ago and learned a ton about how people fall and think about falling. It was physically a lot more difficult than I anticipated - I was doing crossift and running and riding. And I was wiped and seasick after the clinic so yes there’s a lot on the body. But learning about one’s reflexes, reactions and situations was very good. I would recommend it be taken by kids - before they are old and creaky and somersaults make them woozy. Maybe they won’t have as many bad falls.

I learned about removing yourself from a rearing horse. Before I took the clinic I had a mare who unloaded me all the time and somewhere along the way I develped a pretty good tuck/roll way to land, and I also learned to recognize when I’m coming off and when I can try to stay on, and if I’m coming off? Get free from the horse to avoid being dragged or kicked and protect your head. The clinic reinforced that for me.

[subk]

@Hilary

I would recommend it be taken by kids - before they are old and creaky and somersaults make them woozy.

Did anyone else around here waterski as a kid? I always thought my many falls out on the lake as a kid taught me a lot about falling and has been useful for the last 40-50 years. It taught me how unpleasant it is to have body parts flailing around and smacking into the water.

[Willesdon]

I believe a childhood of falling off ponies has been helpful when falling off horses as an adult. And also falls at other times and places, such as tripping on the sidewalk.