Tori is champion at talent search finals

[QUOTE=Manni01;8351411]

In this threat I got the impression that there is no punishment possible because its not even clear whether anybody did anything wrong or not… For me this whole thread was totally confusing and I had the impression for many other people as well. Nobody really knows what is right and what is wrong anymore…[/QUOTE]

I have known about the two-part nature of the D&M rules since I was 15 or so. That two-parter is that testable substances are illegal… and so are untestable substances given in order to enhance performance. That’s clear. It’s a very old rule. I got it as a kid, educated in California’s lack-luster public schools.

How can this be so confusing? Or are people feigning confusion so as to relieved of the burden of following the rules?

I admit the second part of the rule is hard to enforce. That might make it a badly-conceived rule. But it doesn’t make it conceptually unclear.

[QUOTE=mvp;8351582]
I have known about the two-part nature of the D&M rules since I was 15 or so. That two-parter is that testable substances are illegal… and so are untestable substances given in order to enhance performance. That’s clear. It’s a very old rule. I got it as a kid, educated in California’s lack-luster public schools.

How can this be so confusing? Or are people feigning confusion so as to relieved of the burden of following the rules?

I admit the second part of the rule is hard to enforce. That might make it a badly-conceived rule. But it doesn’t make it conceptually unclear.[/QUOTE]

But the way you put this it sounds like the ZERO TOLERANCE rule in FEI and obviously this is not the way it is. If all substances testable or not given in order to enhance performance are illegal then this discussion should not even happen…
I admit, I dont understand it

[QUOTE=Manni01;8351411]
Of course you are right, but I do firmly believe that the ZERO-TOLERANCE policy is still the best way to do it. Of course there will be still people who cheat, but it is a lot more difficult and people doing it will become punished immediately and they will not be defended by everybody. So I think most people will think at least twice before giving anything to the horse.
In this threat I got the impression that there is no punishment possible because its not even clear whether anybody did anything wrong or not… For me this whole thread was totally confusing and I had the impression for many other people as well. Nobody really knows what is right and what is wrong anymore…[/QUOTE]

Well said. Medals do occasionally get redistributed.

As an aside, watched the live stream tonight and found it ironic that Tori was riding a horse owned by “Take the High Road, LLC.”

[QUOTE=two sticks;8352250]
As an aside, watched the live stream tonight and found it ironic that Tori was riding a horse owned by “Take the High Road, LLC.”[/QUOTE]

These things happened in quick succession:

  • Tori left/was kicked out of Scott’s for objecting to training techniques related to her jumpers.
  • Inclusive had a positive drug test at his first show post being with Scott.
  • Karen Long Dwight, now a former Scott client, forms “Take the High Road LLC” and through that purchases Tori a number of jumpers (including Cafino.)

I have not read the entire thread but it is all about cheating and penalties. Why can they not simple do what racehorses do. The top finishers are ALL tested post race. No waiting and it is definitive…
The other thing is, is it safe to have a junior who has ridden horses that are drugged safe to put on jumpers that are very high strung? The confidence is false. These horses are either lunged to death or drugged. What ever happened to a brilliant round…hand galloping and a bright look in the horses eye…
When I watched the GM horsemastership classes and he asked them to do simple warm up by connecting their horses hind end and getting impulsion it was very obvious that quite a few had no idea how to do it… So lets get down to basics… the foundation is cracked and to have these kids at a high level is scary to me. I could never imagine in the eventing world drugging horses, it would be just to dangerous… or with jumpers. they need their energy. Lets see some of the Eq riders ride these horses…
I will get off my soap box now.

[QUOTE=Manni01;8351609]
But the way you put this it sounds like the ZERO TOLERANCE rule in FEI and obviously this is not the way it is. If all substances testable or not given in order to enhance performance are illegal then this discussion should not even happen…
I admit, I dont understand it[/QUOTE]

There are three issues in play.

  1. Which substances are illegal. That’s a definitional thing; it has nothing to do with how one discovers them.

  2. Which substances you can detect. That’s determined by biochemistry, money and the will of the ruling body (What are the chemical traces of the agent and how long are they around in urine or blood in measurable leveles; just how many horses do you want to make piss in a cup?).

  3. The strength of the punishment for anyone caught. As we well know, you can vary this, too.

So when you say I want “zero tolerance,” which of these do you mean?

My position is that, I want #1 to be enforced. It’s already on the books. It’s really hard to enforce because of #2.

The only reason to create “zero tolerence” in that #3 sense-- you are excommunicated from horse shows forever because your horse peed dirty once-- is because you need to get folks to quit trying to find the substance that works and is undetectable. If you can’t find evidence of cheating on the back end, you need to try to incentivize clean sport on the front end.

I hope that makes sense.

But if you think that “zero tolerance” means that no horse should be drugged in a way-- detectable or not-- that enhances his performance, then yes, that’s my position. And it’s the USEF’s position. And it has been the USEF’s position for as long as I can remember, even when the USEF was the AHSA.

[QUOTE=Horseperson112;8352277]

  • Karen Long Dwight, now a former Scott client, forms “Take the High Road LLC” and through that purchases Tori a number of jumpers (including Cafino.)[/QUOTE]

KLD has owned jumpers for Tori for several years - Cafino was purchased at WEF 2015, and Take the High Road LLC was an entity at the time of that purchase, and was the listed owner of the horse.

[QUOTE=ivy62;8352354]
IThe other thing is, is it safe to have a junior who has ridden horses that are drugged safe to put on jumpers that are very high strung? The confidence is false. These horses are either lunged to death or drugged. What ever happened to a brilliant round…hand galloping and a bright look in the horses eye…[/QUOTE]

Seriously?

Have you watched any of the top junior riders do the jumpers? Many of them are jumping 1.50 Grand Prix tracks successfully. Several, including Tori, haven’t had a rail all week in Prix des States, over courses that produced some definite carnage from riders who aren’t used to maxed out tracks.

[QUOTE=jhg140;8352517]
Seriously?

Have you watched any of the top junior riders do the jumpers? Many of them are jumping 1.50 Grand Prix tracks successfully. Several, including Tori, haven’t had a rail all week in Prix des States, over courses that produced some definite carnage from riders who aren’t used to maxed out tracks.[/QUOTE]

I’m with you, it probably won’t happen to a top junior rider. But this scenario… lesser kid who gets really hurt and whose family sues that pants off anyone wearing them connected to a horse they discover was drugged at the time… that is going to happen some day.

And the defensed used in/around the Colvin case: “Yeah, ok, we drugged it… but I didn’t personally do it” or “Yeah, but everyone is drugging to an extent. We just got caught,”-- those arguments won’t work. That’s because in the Colvin case, and as things stand, the results of having been found cheating have caused minimal damage. Apparently, no one cares a lot if sport is unclean. No one died, after all.

But when there are damaging results-- a hurt child and (wealthy, able, litigious) parents who got this rude awakening to how their pro, the sport and the USEF generally conspired such that a kid was sent into a competition to run and jump on a drugged animal-- things are going to be different. No one is going to tolerate the laissez-faire reaction that has happened (everywhere but on these threads) in the Colvin case so far.

ETA: And another thing!

Were I the attorney for the family with the maimed, kid (and my clients had deep pockets as well as a sense of moral outrage), I’d add in the USEF as one of the parties I’d want to pay.

You see, after kiddo gets hurt because of “every day drugging gone terribly bad,” and trainers saying “look, everyone does it. Usually it works. You just got unlucky,” I’d want to know why things like the Humble incident happened. (And you know what I mean, this was a pony that a kid would ride for fun who died of an OD. It wasn’t an adult with full knowledge going to the Olympics for high stakes fame and fortune.)

I’d want to know what the governing body of the sport knew about the drugging that the trainers trying to displace blame said was run-of-the-mill. Did the USEF know that the animals of amateurs and children were cruising around drugged up? I think you could find evidence that the USEF is well-aware of the problem. And if the USEF knew, then where was the effort to put a stop to that before some kid had to get catastrophically hurt or killed? If you looked at the history of rule-making surrounding D&M infractions that go way, way back, I think you’ll find a great deal of foot dragging.

Yes, there will be the USEF’s well-credentialled vet explaining to the jury that creating tests for new concoctions is just an expensively, tiring game of “catch-up” and that, for this reason, some drugging has and always will slip through the cracks. It will sound convincing, rational and contrite.

But if that attorney looked at the history of other parts of the drugging containment system–

How is testing done? What is USEF Membership paying into that and what are they getting out? What does Membership want in terms of clean sport? What are the penalties for infractions? Why did it take all the way to 2014 or so and the Humble thing to insist that folks suspected of drugging not destroy evidence? How are rules, penalties, procedures for the hearing process created? Who, historically, has had the most power in creating those? Whom do they benefit? Who decides which tests to develop when? If the FEI provides another tighter, arguably more effective model, how does the USEF explain it’s not following that? Isn’t it reasonable for a dues-paying USEF Member to expect that his sport’s governing body invest itself a bit in making sure that the sport is safe, not just clean and not just fair to the horses? After all there is no credentialing system for horse trainers in the US, so his results in the USEF show ring and staying in good standing with that organization becomes one of the few measures of quality available to the consumer. In which case, doesn’t the USEF gain the task of helping parents pick a safe sport for their kid? Surely, it’s not the case that anyone openly says to parents "Showing horses is the wild west, no one will do anything to make sure that your kid is safe, not even the governing body. Caveat emptor.

— if the suing attorney looked into the USEF’s role in preventing the kind of drugging horses to be more lethargic and less reactive while running and jumping (and obvious recipe for someday getting a horse to hurt its rider), I think he’d find plenty of culpability.

JMO.

[QUOTE=jhg140;8352510]
KLD has owned jumpers for Tori for several years - Cafino was purchased at WEF 2015, and Take the High Road LLC was an entity at the time of that purchase, and was the listed owner of the horse.[/QUOTE]

Yes, she has owned horses for Tori in her personal name for a while. It’s just smart from a business perspective to form an LLC, but I find the name they chose for the LLC in conjunction with the timing of other events to be interesting.

The problematic part, in the case of the pastes, is proving intent. Many of them have several different effects listed, often gut health, which everyone seeks in their legitimate fear of colic. If these products ONLY said that, and did not contain anything illegal, how would you ever prove that they were given to quiet the horse? The USEF has a real mess on its hands and I have no idea how they would go about solving it.

And for those that don’t know me, but assume that they do from comments I made here for the purposes of discussion, go fly a kite. You don’t have a clue about me.

Well somehow under FEI rules this is possible. And I think there is another huge difference as well. When a horse tests positive, then the horse and the rider are banned from competition until the rider proves that he was not guilty and everything was a mistake… I think that was the case with Steve Guerdat recently…

I think one is stretching it to find legal liability for an organization because it did not root out all drugged horses (or allegedly turn a blind eye) when the parent of the child has eyeballs and should be supervising their own child and can read their own bills and has their own legal responsibilities. Putting it on the association instead of making the owners/parents responsible is part of the problem-and rather circular?

It might be a stretch to go after the USEF, but I can see it happening. Maybe not for 100% liability, but partially.

Sort of “well, you admit you knew the billets on the saddle were worn but you didn’t stop her from using it” or “the horse had a history of randomly exploding into a bucking fit” doesn’t fly even in states where there are liability exemptions for equine activities.

Not saying it would be winnable, but it wouldn’t surprise me to ear of a suit if the situation occurred.

[QUOTE=omare;8352701]
I think one is stretching it to find legal liability for an organization because it did not root out all drugged horses (or allegedly turn a blind eye) when the parent of the child has eyeballs and should be supervising their own child and can read their own bills and has their own legal responsibilities. Putting it on the association instead of making the owners/parents responsible is part of the problem-and rather circular?[/QUOTE]

There’s been a whole lot of stretching going on lately with regards to this topic.

With regards to mvp’s pearl-clutching omgomgomg thinkofthechildren post, I’m wondering how parents are going to prove that the root cause of their children’s potential falls and resulting injuries are due to drug use, and not just poor riding or bad luck. Are we going to expect the USEF to pull a sample every time a kid falls off at a horse show?

In my experience it is more often the mommies drugging the ponies than any trainer.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8352714]
There’s been a whole lot of stretching going on lately with regards to this topic.

With regards to mvp’s pearl-clutching omgomgomg thinkofthechildren post, I’m wondering how parents are going to prove that the root cause of their children’s potential falls and resulting injuries are due to drug use, and not just poor riding or bad luck. Are we going to expect the USEF to pull a sample every time a kid falls off at a horse show?[/QUOTE]

It would be the job of the prosecuting attorney to clutch pearls/make the “thinkofthechildren” argument in this imagined case. Or, more precisely, he’d want the jury to compare the now-fubar little girl in her big pigtails and bows on her pony versus a suited-up organization with a long history of being rather effete in its attempt to clamp down on practices that are dangerous, immoral and so well-known that random horse people discuss them on the internet.

And really, the USEF has created its exposure to this kind of argument. I didn’t make up a BS “pearl clutching argument.” It’s sitting right there, just waiting for a kid to get hurt in a big “rotational fall” because her pony was too doped up to clear the back rail of a little oxer in the hunter ring.

The USEF could have done otherwise. And when called upon to defend itself in the face of an endearing victim, it will have to spend a lot of money doing that. Wouldn’t it have been easier, cheaper and ultimately better to actually accept its responsibility for regulating cheating activities that do make the sport unsafe?

Pretty unusual to find a rotational in the hunter jumper ring. Jumps are flimsy with breakaway engineering pretty monitory. Not that it can’t happen, but haven’t seen one in many years. You’ll need to head out to th cross country course to try to find that scenario.

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8352731]
Pretty unusual to find a rotational in the hunter jumper ring. Jumps are flimsy with breakaway engineering pretty monitory. Not that it can’t happen, but haven’t seen one in many years. You’ll need to head out to th cross country course to try to find that scenario.[/QUOTE]

It’s even more unusual to see a horse or pony so doped up that it can barely get its legs over the jumps, let alone that it CAN’T get over the jumps, nearly killing its rider. The crashes I’ve seen have always been isolated to one single, fateful jump on course. I don’t remember ever once watching a pony or horse go around the ring with near-misses at every single jump until it finally crashed, and I thought to myself, “Yup, I definitely saw THAT coming”.