Tori is champion at talent search finals

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=justathought;8344562]
Tori rode beautifully - there is no taking that away and she did so on all the horses -and not for the first time. She is consistent across hunters, eq, and jumpers.

On a separate note, IMO if you think that Tori is the only top junior who has sat on a “prepped” horse you’re more than a little naive.[/QUOTE]

I am not naive. I’m well aware of the culture. The point is that this team has been caught red handed. They cheated. Cheaters will always exist. But this team got caught.

All the abuse is documented. And they are still competing. It’s outrageous.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=woodhillsmanhattan;8344291]
She was the best rider out there this weekend. The judges got it right.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone would deny that she’s the best rider. But how much of her best ride was enabled by drugging the horse?

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=PKP;8344570]
I agree completely. I feel disenchanted by the events surrounding Inclusive, and it makes me dislike all involved. I think we’d be naive to think, though, that TC’s is the only team who is playing the drugging game, though. How many pictures do we see on this and other websites where the horses have spectacular bascule, and knees to their eyeballs, but their expressions are completely blank and they are lop-eared? Not only can I not compete with the kind of money it takes to get to this level of the sport, but I won’t harm my horses to stoop to the levels these people slither at. So where does that leave me and my children?[/QUOTE]

I would say it leaves us screwed. And it leaves Team Colvin Parker laughing all the way to the victory gallop.

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=HDuckie;8344521]
Yes she did cheat. Not at the talent search, but with inclusive. Giving a horse any feed or paste to enhance their performance or alter their mood is against the rules, although no one seems to follows that.
I think you’re forgetting that not only Inclusive had 9 tubes of whatever-calm-paste he also tested positive for GABA. That’s cheating.
Whenever I see her ride I can’t help but think of how many times they’ve cheated in the past.[/QUOTE]

I’m not forgetting or forgiving anything. There is no evidence that Tori Colvin herself cheated. Did somebody or somebodies cheat? Yep but I’m not hanging that on the junior without evidence.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

Although I agree that the owner and rider should be as culpable as anyone else involved with the horse, the fact is that every horse Tori got on in the ride-off warmed to her style and went extremely well. Further proof of her ability is that her own horse was curling behind the bridle with everyone other than TJ, who clamped his leg on the horse to send him forward. He didn’t do that with Tori–he went along happy and rhythmically.

[justathought]

[QUOTE=carroal;8344575]
I am not naive. I’m well aware of the culture. The point is that this team has been caught red handed. They cheated. Cheaters will always exist. But this team got caught.

All the abuse is documented. And they are still competing. It’s outrageous.[/QUOTE]

So… I don’t think you mean to say this … but the above implies that its worse if you get caught. IMO its wrong regardless of whether you are caught or not. Drugging and other “prepping” is rampant in the horse show culture. Better to focus on changing the culture than to vilify the one junior who was caught riding a prepped horse.

All for changing the rules and setting down the horse, the owner, and even the rider if appropriate. But those weren’t the rules. Criticize the USEF or the USHJA for not taking a real and vocal stand – for not leading the charge to clean up the sport. But this rider is functioning within the rules that exist.

Its wrong to single out and disparage this rider who rode beautifully today on all 4 horses when the problem is much broader and pervasive.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=HDuckie;8344414]
I’m not happy because I feel like not enough has happened after the drugging case. It was the same stuff that it’s always been. There was this huge case about Inclusive being drugged and everyone got (rightfully) upset that 1. They were cheating and 2. The horse was being drugged, but now what? Barely anything has changed. Tori’s showing again, of course on a Betsee Parker horse. She wins, blah blah blah.
I feel disgusted. At least her mothers suspension was upheld. Tori no doubt knew what was going on, and that alone takes away many of her achievements in my eyes. If you praise her for being hands on with her mounts, then you have to punish her for at least for riding a drugged horse.
I am just upset how barely anything has changed and we are all moving along like nothing has happened.[/QUOTE]

The RULES hold the trainer responsible. Not the rider, not the owner. Those are the RULES now. Why, in this case, do you think Tiri, a junior and not the trainer, should be held responsible? Don’t like the rules? Change them. But you can’t hang Tori out there just because you don’t like her being able to show. This is no different from prior cases.

[longtimelurker]

[QUOTE=carroal;8344577]
I don’t think anyone would deny that she’s the best rider. But how much of her best ride was enabled by drugging the horse?[/QUOTE]

…I would say very little/none of her ride today was enabled by drugging the horse. Particularly the three horses that weren’t hers.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=PKP;8344458]
I think Hunter had much better rides than Tori today, and is a much better eq rider in general. Tori chipped into the triple combination in her third round, chipped the second fence, then had to very visibly gun it to the third, leaving long. She may have completed it effectively, but it was neither pretty nor fluid, where all of Hunter’s rides looked more seamless. It really makes me wonder if our sport is too far gone to the deep pockets to be resuscitated.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what the camera angles were showing, but I was there and that just isn’t what happened. Most everyone I spoke to felt Tori got the most consistent performances out of all the horses. She and Hunter both ride beautifully. But Hunter had a rail, and it was because she got a bit too deep to the oxer and caught the front rail going up. It was a wonderful ride off of very equally matched riders. No one made a big mistake. But, even though they start with a clean slate, you can’t think that the same judges who gave Tori the win in all three phases are going to discount that. They aren’t.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=justathought;8344647]
So… I don’t think you mean to say this … but the above implies that its worse if you get caught. IMO its wrong regardless of whether you are caught or not. Drugging and other “prepping” is rampant in the horse show culture. Better to focus on changing the culture than to vilify the one junior who was caught riding a prepped horse.

All for changing the rules and setting down the horse, the owner, and even the rider if appropriate. But those weren’t the rules. Criticize the USEF or the USHJA for not taking a real and vocal stand – for not leading the charge to clean up the sport. But this rider is functioning within the rules that exist.

Its wrong to single out and disparage this rider who rode beautifully today on all 4 horses when the problem is much broader and pervasive.[/QUOTE]

No the culture is not ok. Yes, those caught cheating should be punished. I’m well aware that people cheat across the board in life. They also commit crimes, of course, despite how severe punishments may be. However, a civil society or organization has to punish the known violaters of laws and rules.

And no, it’s not wrong to single out the rider benefiting from long term drugging of horses. It’s not wrong to say that her role is suspect, her ribbons are suspect.

We should still be pointing out that this is a very sketchy situation and that the rules need to be changed so that a ribbon from USEF is meaningful.

[JAGold]

[QUOTE=carroal;8344693]

And no, it’s not wrong to single out the rider benefiting from long term drugging of horses. It’s not wrong to say that her role is suspect, her ribbons are suspect.

We should still be pointing out that this is a very sketchy situation and that the rules need to be changed so that a ribbon from USEF is meaningful.[/QUOTE]
Whatever you or I may think of what happened with Inclusive and how Tori’s horses have been prepared in the past, it simply doesn’t make sense to cast doubt on this win. The final work off starts from a clean slate. In that work off, Tori rode all four horses and the other three riders rode her horse. So, if she can only put in a winning ride on a drugged horse, then you must believe that the three other riders/trainers also drugged their mounts. And if you believe that her horse for today’s class was drugged and therefore gave her an advantage, you must believe that only Tori but not the other riders benefit from a drugged horse. Those two things don’t make sense.

I agree that there are serious issues about how horses are prepared and how the industry is incentivized and governed. I agree that lots of questions about Tori’s past victories remain unanswered. However, I don’t think any of that undermines her victory in today’s class, given the format it’s run under.

[sarcam02]

She rode the best of all and deserved that win hands down.

[justathought]

[QUOTE=carroal;8344693]
… However, a civil society or organization has to punish the known violaters of laws and rules.

And no, it’s not wrong to single out the rider benefiting from long term drugging of horses. It’s not wrong to say that her role is suspect, her ribbons are suspect. …

We should still be pointing out that this is a very sketchy situation and that the rules need to be changed so that a ribbon from USEF is meaningful.[/QUOTE]

Those who violate the law are subject to penalties according to the law - not beyond it. Your position imposes a penalty on the rider that did not exist under the rules in place.

Its ok to want to change the rules - and there is much to change.

However, we have to disagree on the position you are taking on this rider in this final – it is wrong to try to impose a penalty that did not exist. And it is wrong to diminish this accomplishment without knowledge of current wrong doing.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=BAC;8344485]
Im not so sure Inclusive with his collapsed veins is happy. She has great riding talent but she cheated and should have been suspended and not eligible to ride in this class.[/QUOTE]

I agree. But until we hold Juniors to that standard, we’re SOL. And I do think Colvin can ride, whether or not the horses underneath her are clean.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think there was little doubt that Tori was going to win USET. Barring a big mistake I think it was her event to win.

IMHO, the “Inclusive” debacle, highlights the fact even if someone from a team gets caught cheating, they can apply for “stays” (or whatever they are called) to still attend events, etc.

I can see why people will take a chance at cheating because the punishments are so light as to be a mere slap on the hand. It appears easy enough to have a fall guy take the hit too.

[lauriep]

Just to be clear, Brigid has filed suit AGAINST the USEF in a court of law, and it is the courts issuing these stays, not the USEF. And this is the first time I have heard of this working they don’t “apply” for stays, and this is not common.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=carroal;8344577]
I don’t think anyone would deny that she’s the best rider. But how much of her best ride was enabled by drugging the horse?[/QUOTE]

I didn’t impugn TC’s ride or win. I just asked this question. It’s now the question we will be asking about her past and future rides. And in my mind, it is an appropriate and logical question to ask.

[justathought]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8344816]
Just to be clear, Brigid has filed suit AGAINST the USEF in a court of law, and it is the courts issuing these stays, not the USEF. And this is the first time I have heard of this working they don’t “apply” for stays, and this is not common.[/QUOTE]

Actually filing a lawsuit and requesting a stay (or a temporary restraining order) is not uncommon.

In the Brady/NFL case, the union considered seeking a stay of Brady’s suspension… but when the parties agreed to an expedited hearing they abandoned this plan.

In situations where irreparable harm (that is something that can not be rectified by a later judgment) is involved, these orders can and do sometimes happen

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8344816]
Just to be clear, Brigid has filed suit AGAINST the USEF in a court of law, and it is the courts issuing these stays, not the USEF. And this is the first time I have heard of this working they don’t “apply” for stays, and this is not common.[/QUOTE]

In this case it doesn’t matter who is issuing the stays because the end product is similar, the person in question isn’t forbidden from doing certain things (i.e. show attendance) for a period of time. I can see why doping or drugging a horse is a risk that some people will take because the penalty is not very severe.

[Kinsella]

The “team” involved with Inclusive is not the same “team” working with the equitation horses Tori rides. Just because they are owned by Betsee does not mean they are managed by the same people. So essentially you are throwing Andre and his people under the bus and accusing them of cheating…

And since no where in any testimony does it ever say Tori gave any horse anything, you can stop implying she is guilty of anything other than being a better rider than we all wish we could be.