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Tough Equestrian Mentality

Are you (OP) the person that got blocked from that group because you were being a huge a-hole on that “discussion?”

:roll_eyes:

I think your viewpoint is wildly judgemental.
The post was taken down, otherwise I’d copy-paste what I had said on it. I’ll try to remember.
Bottom line is, no one has any right to judge someone else’s pain tolerance.
If you want to push through a major injury to jump one more fence or ride one more class, that’s your prerogative. Someone else choosing not to does not in any way mean they have less “grit” than you, nor does it mean that you’re somehow better than them.
It is not admirable to abuse your body for another ribbon. It is not admirable to work 80-hour weeks, especially on a salary structured around a 40-hour week. It is not admirable to still go to the office to work while you have pneumonia. Younger generations are bringing about a much-needed change to our society. It is no longer admirable to push push push and break down your body, mind, and soul.

And to your other absurdly perceived issue-
Obesity is a problem in the USA due to poverty and price of healthy food options. A salad costs $10 and a cheeseburger costs $1. When you’re poor, there’s really no choice between them. It doesn’t have ish to do with millennials and younger generations being lazier than the previous generations.

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Well said.

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Well…those are definitely factors. But people are also sedentary. And while many people can blame their sedentary jobs for some of it, that’s not the only reason Americans are obese. Lots of middle and upper class people are obese too. I was at a restaurant yesterday…people were making some expensive, poor food choices there. Huge portions, sodas, wine and beer, etc.

But as to the topic - back on or hospital is stupid. Its a good way to risk serious injury as well as turn potentially great riders off of a sport with unnecessary pressure. Everyone falls off at some point, but in a serious fall, trainers should be cautious pushing riders to get back on - serious injuries (especially head injuries) may not be evident right away. Especially for kids - they may not really know what it feels like to hurt themselves seriously.

“Toughness” or “grit” does not come from riding through “pain”. Exercise can be uncomfortable, but that is different than “pain.” Posting trot with no stirrups might be “painful” in the sense that your muscles are burning, but that’s not the same as riding on a sprained ankle or broken collar bone. Nothing great comes out of that kind of “tough.” Trainers should push their students to be “tough” - that extra lap of no stirrups, pushing through the last set of a core workout, etc., but they should not push them to work through actual pain. That often just leads to having to take time off to heal.

I an an endurance athlete and my coach is a huge stickler about this; he knows a lot of the workouts are uncomfortable - you’re tired, your muscles are burning, your lungs are burning - he’s all about grit and toughness. But he would kill me if I sprained my ankle and then got back up and kept running.

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So the happy medium is “Well, you fell off, so no trophy. Follow medical advice, do your PT and go back to your training and maybe things will go better next time.”

And I don’t think it’s an age thing. I know plenty of people who have cultivated more mental and/or physical toughness than their parents. I know plenty of older people who refuse to do anything “hard” and thus are aging more rapidly than they need to. Also, as I said above, the perseverance to show up every day and do the “chop wood, carry water” work of training will take most people a lot farther than some wrong-headed bravado that makes them get back on and ride with an injury. If someone is falling frequently enough that it makes a big difference whether they get back on and ride with injuries or not, something is very wrong, and they need to reexamine the training, fitness, and level they’re trying to ride at.

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Has there ever been any scientific research that proves “getting right back on” improves riders mentally? I have always wondered if this was empirically true.

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Good question. I think this is even a question worthy of self-reflection too.

And to be honest, it really depended on the situation too, whether it was a mental plus or minus, whether getting back on after a fall was the best decision. It certainly didn’t have to do with perseverance or grit though.

Such as, when I was 8 or 9, I fell off twice in the span of an hour because the normally dopey pony decided to unexpectedly canter (because a horse spooked and bolted) and I wasn’t prepared. I wasn’t hurt at all, but getting back on after was that mental push I needed. More recently, my now deceased mare was hot (and I really should have lunged her before), and in the first five minutes of that ride, she bucked me off. Again, it wasn’t that hard of a fall, got back on, schooled her a bit, ended on a great note, and it was a positive effect — for both of us. Horse was happy. I was happy. Good day.

And then, I think of other falls and getting back on actually was a negative influence mentally. I was petrified after one horse kept bolting and I came off. Naturally, the coach said to get back on, and in all truth, I really shouldn’t have been on a horse because I wasn’t mentally settled and that does not translate into good riding. Obviously, the horse felt it, my body was stiff so my aids must have felt awful to the horse, and that energy fed off each other. It really would have been more beneficial to stay dismounted, settle, and try again the next day. But, because I got back on so quickly, and the ride got worse, it gave me pause for a period.

I’m not sure where the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality came from. It really wasn’t implanted in my culture (Slav) and I’ve not experienced people that promote it. But, that’s a question for another time, as the point is, perseverance and grit can materialize in many forms — not only working through pain.

The more sensible thing is to make a plan, or a goal, and stick to it no matter the hurdles that pop up. With horses, there is always something, so that creates the same effect of grit, without the need of a yardstick of telling war stories in a bar.

Self-preservation with long-term goals for rider and horse should be the standard.

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Nope. Still a card carrying member of that group. :star_struck:

I was away from this thread for the weekend, and while many people want to assume I’m judgmental and old - I’ll just say, I’m in my early 30s (so, definitely a millennial) and I maintain that the world is getting softer, more people are being coddled, and we’re too accepting of mediocrity. That’s not to say I’m going to stand around and talk shit if someone opts out of something, that’s not my style; but it is a mental note of my perception of their character.

I would also like to point out that I made a voluntary choice to emergency eject off my bolting/bucking three year old this weekend - despite a very bruised right leg and and adrenaline rush, I did get back on and finish my ride - so it’s not a situation as “do as I say, not as I do”.

My point that everyone has really enjoyed making me the bad guy on is that - the mental toughness we used to collectively have has been whittled away. “The bar has been lowered to the point it’s almost on the ground.” To quote myself, from earlier in this thread,

I think that’s the issue I have - people are so quick to say oh it’s okay if you think you hurt rather than saying, no it’s not supposed to be easy - push on. And as a result, the bar is becoming lower and lower and mediocrity is the result.

Now, it seems many of you are the anti-thesis to what I’ve said and that’s totally fine. A difference in opinion is what makes the world go round and that’s why I posted this thread, to get input from others. I maintain my position, but it’s certainly interesting to consider other viewpoints.

Thanks everyone for a lively discussion!

I hate hospital or get back on. Of course I don’t ride with anyone who would ever tell me that. Riding horses is for fun, if it’s not fun I don’t need to do it. Destroying my body or risking a brain injury because I have a concussion that isn’t immediately apparent is ridiculous. If I can’t work I cant afford to ride anyways.
So- what exactly is the advantage to getting back on if you don’t feel right? Even for my kid who competes and will likely continue to compete, I wouldn’t let her ride with anyone that had that mentality. She isn’t going to the olympics and school is her priority. If you aren’t a medical professional you have no business telling some one they need to get back on.

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In my opinion, it shows your youth and relative ignorance to have such a black and white view of the situation. There are so many factors that go into actions and following actions that “hospital or get back on” is just to hard a line. My trainer and I have aged together, as she is a few years younger than myself but has had a different path in her youth that gave her more knowledge than me about certain things, which is why she is my trainer.

Her line has definitely moved over the years and while she generally advocated getting back on after a fall, it was never “must go back to doing what you did” There is generally a psychological impact as to whether or not you get back on immediately, in that often not getting back on feeds the part of the brain that wants you to avoid dangerous things - in other words, the last thing you did with the horse was “dangerous” (you fell, could have hurt yourself) and that thought tends to sit and ferment into a bigger fear.

That being said, getting back on is not always the best idea and getting back on and doing what you were doing before is also not the best idea. So, even over a decade ago my trainer would assess after a fall.

Let’s use an example of someone jumpin 3’ and falls off going over a jump:

scenario 1- both horse and rider seem fine physically and mentally, get back on, do the jump/course again. Assess what happened that rider departed from horse so it does not happen again.

scenario 2 - both horse and rider physicially fine, rider visibly shaken - get back on, walk around, relax, if that’s ok, trot, if that’s ok, canter, if that’s ok, crossrail, etc. Basically get back into things more slowly.

scenario 3 - both horse and rider physically fine, horse seems shaken - down to crossrails, move up, figure out what caused the horse to feel overfaced.

scenario 4/5 - either one looks injured, assess before moving forward.

She preached “grit” but not at the expense of physical or psychological damage.

More recently (both these incidents were last fall)

1 - I’m riding a new horse, we lunge him a few days and he seems fine, so she comes in, but of a lunge, seems fine. I get on and I’m having a bit of trouble steering and the like and we discuss that he (former racehorse) may not have learned that (some do, some don’t - but that’s another subject). Next thing you know he starts rearing, bucking and generally just throwing himself around. Technically, I didn’t fall off but she told me to dismount seconds after the behavior starts. She mentions she had seen him do this with the farrier also - he just seemed to feel like he was done and threw a fit. So remaining on (or getting back on if he succeeded in tossing me) would not have resolved the behavior. Instead, we lunged him until he was sweaty and tired and reassessed the training.

2 - a horse I had been riding a good deal, which is generally a sweet horse but BIG moving, LAUNCHED me in the air when he spooked at one of the employees mowing next to the indoor - the mower kind of suddenly appeared in view in a side door and he jumped, I got offsides and he jumped again at that because that’s not something he’s used to and the bolted because obviously I became possessed by a demon if I’m doing all this weird stuff. Both of us were physicaly fine but I was a bit shaken so I got back on and walked, trotted the next day and the day after I cantered again. Had I tried to canter that first day, I would have gotten tense, grabbed the reins and otherwise made a mess of the ride.

I posted similar thoughts in a thread in Hunter or Eventing on training a young horse - but the bottom line is everyone’s physical and psychological tolerance is different based on many factors so to judge someone for what they do after a fall is to show a lack of empathy towards different situations.

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Probably not helpful to this particular discussion, but people are WAY less hardy than they were 100 years ago. I’m doing some research on lighthouse keepers of the late 1800’s…read the “Little House on the Prairie” books…folks were tougher.

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LOL yes and life expectancy was shorter, accidental death and permanent injuries were higher. Workplaces were unsafe, education was limited. Healthcare was non-existent.

What’s your point?

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say. “Oh it’s ok if you think you hurt” - what does that even mean? Do you mean “It’s ok (to not get back on) if you think you’re hurt?”

Do you really think riders are less good if they aren’t forced to get back on after a fall?

What makes you think that? Are you seeing riders that are less skilled/capable? And if so, in comparison to what?

Or, in general, do you think trainers don’t make riders work as much/as hard as ‘they used to’ back in some other time or place? And if that’s the case, is it related to falling off, or just daily work?

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sure thing. we need to support each other!

Another aspect that I failed to mention is fairness to the horse. We all know that your train your horse every time you ride. If I am tired from a hard lesson or a long schooling ride and my abs just can’t work anymore- I’m not giving my horse a good ride. If I’m physically spent I won’t have soft hands and legs - I’ll get grippy and unbalanced and that is not fair to my horse. If I fall and get back on while angry or frightened, I am not going to be a fair and calm partner.

End on a good note. There is nothing wrong with sweating in the saddle and working on your own stamina, but know your limits. I personally know I am not setting my horse up for success if I am struggling with maintaining a neutral spine, so squeezing in a few more canter transitions if I am tired and unbalanced wont go well. It will just frustrate my sensitive horse.

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I’m curious @arelle is this mediocrity you keep referring to in regards to quality of riding? Or general horsemanship? I feel like there must be some examples you have of seeing someone quit too early or ‘give up’ that negatively effected their horse?

Not trying to pick on you, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

I’ll start by saying that as long as the footing is safe - I’ll ride my horse in any weather. Of course I adjust our workload correctly, but I have seen boarders who won’t come out because it is too hot, too cold - of god forbid, its misting rain. In that instance, I would be in agreement with you that you put your comfort aside for the good of your horse and get your horse out of the stall for some exercise.

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Some perspective.

I don’t think girls and women have ever been subjected to this kind of “true grit” pressure in any general societal way. I think it is an attitude created to manage boys and young men in semi violent organizations: military, football teams, etc.

I attended school in the 1960s and 1970s. There was no assumption that girls would show “grit” in any physical activity, or even be fit, despite the existence of some girls’ sports in high school. Adult women did not exercise, and certainly didn’t ride horses (maybe a couple in their 20s had horses). Plus there were no riding lessons.

More widespread female participation in sport and fitness started in the 1980s.

I think the get back on mentality in horses may have trickled down from old cavalry officers.

On the other hand, I recall lots of shaming and refusal to accomodate in school PE. The general assumption was that all of us were lazy and trying to skive off. So the teachers had no patience for girls with period cramps, cold triggered ear aches, head colds. We had to wear short shorts and a T outside in cold weather (sweat pants didn’t really exist) and we were not allowed to drink water while exercising (water bottles didn’t exist). All of this didn’t seem about grit, and it certainly wasn’t to make us better athletes. It was about classroom management discipline and making sure students obeyed and indeed to punish them.

So I don’t know when the Golden Age of gritty fit girls would have been. I don’t think that the strength for endurance in hard farm work necessarily translated to grit in high speed sports. Most farm women doing hard work with poultry dairy and gardening never got on horses or did any sports.

Obviously those who reach the top of a field have courage and physical stamina.

But even today young men are the bigger risk takers. Look at all the extreme sports and snow boarding, etc. Look at all the boys and young men that smash themselves up on mountain bikes, snow, skateboards, etc. They have self directed grit and physical fitness beyond anything in my parent’s generation.

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The argument that the US is fat and overly sedentary because we’re becoming a bunch of weak-minded individuals is as old as the day is long and according to the vast majority of research simply untrue and unsubstantiated. There are many more potent pieces at play there, from the massive government subsidizing of the food industry leading to cheap, calorically-dense and nutritionally empty foods being the most accessible kinds to the insane and still-rising costs of healthcare in this country.

I think the issue I take with your initial post and all the subsequent posts is that there is a distinct lack of empathy. I don’t disagree that learning how to dig deep and develop some grit is a useful and important skill whether that’s in equine activities or anything else. I don’t disagree that true mental toughness is something many people have a hard time developing.

But to be totally, brutally honest? At the end of the day, someone else’s choices are none of your business. Judging your friend’s reason for missing the Zoom Christmas meeting, preaching that we’re blessed living easy lives in first world countries…who died and made you judge, jury and executioner? The world is not black and white; from the sounds of it I’m about the same age as you but your posts lack a maturity to recognize than hard-lining to one side or the other is rarely a great way to go through life.

While we’re at it, since the purpose of this post was horse related: I’ve been teaching for nearly 10 years and taking horses in for training just as long and I’ve seen more instances where a horse was negatively affected because the person persisted when they should have stopped than I have the reverse scenario.

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Girl - preach.

For the OP, “making a mental note” on your opinion of someone’s “character” is still being judgmental, it doesn’t have to be spoken out loud to be considered as such.

There’s also a significant difference between mental toughness and physical toughness. Getting back on or “pushing through” a serious physical ailment in any situation may demonstrate your physical toughness, but not mental. Mental strength includes recognizing when to stop, recognizing when the risk is too high compared to the potential gain, and actually stopping no matter how bad you want that ribbon, or one last good jump, or one last good transition.
Trainers that yell at people to just push on through with broken limbs or ripped connective tissue or head injuries isn’t building mental toughness, it’s just bullying.

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I agree with @BatCoach. A certain type of personality is attracted to the lifestyle. I’m talking about the hands on care types, the ones that show up in coveralls on the worst day of the year.

not replying to soloudinhere won’t let me edit

A little off on a tangent to relate my experience with PE in high school. Somehow, I had lost my gym suit, those ugly red one piece with snaps up the front, between Junior and Senior year. My mother refused to buy one for me, insisting that the school has to provide one. Well, the school didn’t provide one and I had to sit out an entire semester of PE because of it. Plus, the PE teacher made me write a report on basketball (she was a sadist) to what punish me? At the start of the next semester, I found out I had to take gym every single day to make up for not being allowed to participate with out a suit. I was there, just not allowed. Then, the gym teacher said “how about if I give you a suit?” She opens this closet and there are shelves and shelves of gym suits. She grabbed one and threw it at me. So she made me sit out an entire semester, write a stupid report, and made me have to take gym every day while she sat on an entire closet full of gym suits. I should have gone to the school board and had her if not fired, then reprimanded. After all these years it still ticks me off.

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Appreciate your feedback!

Where and what do you teach? I’m interested in a further dive into: “I don’t disagree that learning how to dig deep and develop some grit is a useful and important skill whether that’s in equine activities or anything else. I don’t disagree that true mental toughness is something many people have a hard time developing.

Could you expand on those points?

There’s a difference between “my foot hurts and I’m scared and I don’t want to push through” And “my foot hurts, I think I might have seriously injured it and may do more damage if I get back on”. I think hospital or on is a little extreme because with things like feet, hands, wrists, etc it’s often a good idea to ice it for 24 hours before you decide to seek medical care.

I’d also like to surround myself with people who aren’t so “hospital or on” that they would let me get back on a horse if I had a head injury. The rider often thinks their fine in those cases and it’s up to everyone around them to make them sit out (and go to the hospital).

In the grand scheme of things though I do think getting back on is important. I think it’s important to a riders confidence to understand that falls happen and they normally aren’t a big deal. Fall off, get back on, fix your mistake and move on. That’s how the sport goes.

I remember having this discussion on COTH maybe a year or two ago. A poster who sounded like a mom was absolutely steadfast in her stance that kids should NEVER get back on a horse after falling. I think I used the example that kids will sometimes slide down the ponies neck when they stop for a bite of grass, sometimes giggling the whole way down. Nope, she said, they are unable to know if they have a head injury and should never get back on. She seemed to not know or believe that the majority of falls do not result in injuries. That was weird.