Trading for lessons insulting?

[173north]

I agree with the posters suggesting to pick up an extra freelance client or two as your “Horse Client” and put that cash toward riding. Picking up extra work is going to be a lot simpler and more sustainable over the next 5 years than trading riding for your services, plus it will grow your portfolio.

I’d also be concerned that you might not get fair market value for your work if you barter. If your fee for a full site redesign is equal to a year of monthly lessons - will the pro hold up their end of that bargain? What if they discontinue their lesson program, or you get injured or busy and have to take time off, etc? It’s cleaner to do the job for someone else, be paid in full, and direct the $ toward horses.

Obviously, riding is a luxury but you have to value your happiness and sanity, too. I freelance to cover my riding and it works well for me both financially and psychologically: my salary goes toward “responsible” stuff and any freelance money I can spend on horses without feeling too guilty!

[Mulligan314]

I have not read through all the responses, but I’ll throw in my experience. I’m in a similar position of paying off student debt, not as much though, but still wanting to progress myself and my horse.

I found a trainer that I was curious about working with. The first 8 lessons, I paid for. I established myself with him, showed him I was able and willing, and as time passed I informally asked him if he needed a groom for an upcoming show. At first he was a little shocked because most of his clients are Amateur riders and therefore can’t help in that way - I don’t think he realized I have held a pro card since I was 18

After that offer, he started having me come out to work at the farm when he was out of town. I work horses, clean them up, etc. I have groomed at shows for him, braided his hunt horses, done whatever the heck he needs me to do. The last time I went out there, their stall cleaner was injured and it was a group effort to get all the stalls done. Originally he said ‘I’ll pay you X amount per hour’ but it has now become ‘when you want to bring your horse out for a lesson, just let me know’. I have never received cash/payment from him, but I have also not paid for anything but my own show fees since last summer.

While it ruined my 3rd attempt of regaining my amateur card, it’s what I need to do right now to progress.

The main difference between my trade off and yours, as has been mentioned above, is the time commitment. When I walk away from the barn, I’m done. I’m not going back home to edit pictures for hours, or (insert other fancy design things here). It does cut into the time I get to work with my own horse, BUT every time I work with one of his, I learn something for mine own, so it’s never time truly lost. And, I tell him that. It’s absolutely a privilege to learn from him. But for you, it may be a major time chunk to be able to do what you are offering, and is it worth it? Or, like was said above, is it more worth it to get the money from an actual client and leave the horse stuff alone (and retain you A card )

ETA: I only take 1-ish lesson a month currently…so, the work to lesson ratio is very much in the trainer’s favor. I take a lesson and go home and do A LOT of homework. When I come back I want to be able to move forward and I know his time is very valuable so I try to respect it.

[danhelm441]

I second the opinion that you’re better off picking up another FL gig. I think you’re looking at the bartering arrangement as giving you “permission” to take lessons. But time is money. So whether it’s time or money, you’re still redirecting effort away from something that could be decreasing your debt.

OTOH, I think you may have more options than you realize. At my barn, if you are a nice person, competent to W/T/C, and keep a regular schedule, people will hit you up to exercise their horses on days they can’t make it out to the barn. And it’s not just random, it’ll be a set schedule, like, “I can only ride Tuesday’s and Thursday’s this semester, so can you ride my horse every Monday and Friday for the next 3 months?”

Bigger, more organized programs would probably not like these types of arrangements, since basically it’s a way for boarders for keep their horses in consistent work without paying for pro rides. But for someone in your position and a busy boarder, it’s a win-win. Try posting an ISO ad on your local equestrian Facebook page and see if you get any bites. You honestly don’t have to be a hot shot rider. In fact, some people prefer that because they trust you not to do anything risky with their horses.

[Displaced_Yankee]

@secondhandgallop

We make good money so I’m not worried it won’t be paid, but I want it gone ASAP to start building wealth like I did before marriage.

I’m sorry, you lost me here. You can pay, but you don’t want to.

As a former trainer, this would be a hard no, particularly if it was a new client. If you were a long-time client that had fallen on hard times or had a reasonable reason for the short term, that is a different story with individual consideration.

[secondhandgallop]

@Displaced_Yankee No worries, please see my comment from above. It’s just how my brain works.

@secondhandgallop

It’s just hard for me to look at the math and reconcile not putting money into tackling the debt, hence why I thought about the service trading.

Thank you for your perspective!

[SuzieQNutter]

You need you own bank account and your own money.

1. if everything goes pear shaped and you lose something you have something to get you started again which he can not claim.

2. This sounds like his debt not yours. You can help him with it but not 100%. That is not fair.

3. If you are earning your own money you do not need to ask permission to spend it. I am not saying you go out and buy something really expensive without discussing it first. But if you want a new helmet etc. You shouldn’t need permission to buy it. JMHO.

[secondhandgallop]

@SuzieQNutter I very much understand your perspective and appreciate you sharing it. I’m sure many people prescribe to these thoughts and I hope it works amazingly well for them.

However, I simply don’t agree. I vowed that what’s mine is his and what’s his is mine. I’m sure you’re coming from a place of concern, truly, but please don’t worry about me.

[TheDBYC]

@secondhandgallop check out Mind Over Money by Brad Klontz. It’s a good read for anyone, really. But especially those in a newer marriage.

[Roni4444]

Hi, you may want to check into the tax consequences of any barter

Trading Services: Is Swapping Chores for Riding Lessons Better than Paying Cash?

[soloudinhere]

I guarantee you that getting into horses is going to do the opposite of help you “build wealth.”

[McGurk]

While absolutely true, that is almost universally ignored in the horse business; partially because it is so hard to monitor.

True story from my very early horse girl days: Wanted help doing my taxes. Went into an H&R Block. Showed them my truly pitiful yearly income. Preparer didn’t believe that’s all that I made and was pressing for more details. I allowed as how I lived in a basement apartment on the farm where I worked, and did chores and taught lessons to offset my rent and board on my horse. Preparer asked for a value on the apartment and didn’t believe my valuation - it was a basement apartment heated by a wood stove with walls roughed in and bare studs - and valued it at what a typical apartment in town would go for.

And then told me I owed thousands in taxes. I left the office in tears.

Someone referred me to another accountant. A CPA, in a lovely brick office with a receptionist. Went through the whole process again, was told I owed a negligible amount. I carefully asked, speaking hypothetically, what it would mean if I bartered work for my rent, and the accountant said that hypothetically, he would advise not discussing that with my accountant.

[mvp]

@secondhandgallop

The third point ties in with second in that we’d have to negotiate and line-item everything. I know my rates and can show her equine businesses I’ve worked with before and get to a point where hopefully everyone’s comfortable and happy.

IMO, you might need to be prepared to lower your hourly rate. If you were bartering with someone in a different industry, that might not be necessary. But you need to remember that the horse business is notorious for underpaying labor. So when you go to her and value your time at, say, $40/hour and she knows she’s not personally making that, you might have inadvertently opened your negotiation by putting her at a disadvantage.

One metric to keep in mind: I think it has been standard practice since I was a kid to trade 4-5 hours of barn rat stall-cleaning type labor for one lesson on a horse the BO owned. I’m sure that ratio looks very backward when you think of what you make in your professional capacity!

But remember that you need to give the BO something she needs at a price she can afford… and you might have to sell her on both points.

[mvp]

@secondhandgallop

To answer the question about picking up freelance, I normally always have a freelance client going, but it’s hard to reconcile having money come in that wouldn’t go into debt. It’s a conversation I’ve had with my husband which resulted in him encouraging me to do what I wanted with my extra money vs. our salary money. It’s just hard for me to look at the math and reconcile not putting money into tackling the debt, hence why I thought about the service trading. I’m leaning towards taking just a small percentage out of the post-taxes remainder into my personal account.

That’s a red flag to me. It means that you don’t value lessons enough to pay cash for them (as opposed to pay down the same amount of debt which, by the way, gets paid with pre-tax income).

Again, as a BO not making per hour what a white-collar young pro does, I don’t think I’d want to barter with you if you merely wanted lessons at a discount rate but didn’t need that badly enough.

Bartering doesn’t work when one side doesn’t actually need the non-cash trade, but merely wants it.

[AlexxSays]

I’m in an opposite situation- I work in digital content marketing and my trainer asked if I would be interested in helping her to update her website in exchange for some money off my monthly bill.

I ended up telling her I would be happy to just do it if I could use it as part of my portfolio.

I know some other people are in barter like agreements at the barn- but they are all drawn out with a binding contract to protect both parties.

[TheDBYC]

@AlexxSays

ended up telling her I would be happy to just do it if I could use it as part of my portfolio.

Why, though? You could’ve gotten the benefit of the barter & used it in your portfolio anyway.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I agree with what everyone else has been saying and will also add that I don’t know many barn owners who would value a graphic design skill enough to be willing to offer lessons in exchange for it. It’s a skill I personally have great respect for…but even many barns in my area that are doing rather well have absolutely godawful websites. I’ve often joked that the better the trainer, the worse the website. There are also a few terrible, drama-filled barns that have great websites, too!

Regarding sales videos–a barn that sells enough horses to want professionally made sales videos is unlikely to offer riding lessons, or at least, not casual riding lessons for someone without significant disposable income. The barns in my area with fancy-pants videos with trainers are barns that don’t even have people just taking lessons for cash–you’re expected to be “in a program,” owning and leasing your own horse.

Establishing a relationship with a trainer solely on barter is unlikely to work out as a new relationship in any fashion, since for everyday, necessary skills like mucking out, the owner has to trust the employee/student (unless you have great, trusted references). For something that technically isn’t necessary like design, even less so.

I’ll also add that I’m a writer, and at times (note my comments about clunky barn websites), I’ve offered as a favor to various trainers to let me rewrite some of the website copy for free (not bartering for anything), or help them write sales ads. I’ve always been turned down, often because it’s just too much bother for them to change what’s already up, and the kids like to do the videos and the sales captions. With social media, it’s very easy to post things, too, and for better or for worse, many barns just rely upon the trainer posting stuff on their Facebook page.

[TheDBYC]

For most barns, web sites are probably not as important than a good social media strategy. And a good social media strategy is time consuming. You’ll probably get interest if you offer to help them manage that aspect as well instead of just improving the copy.

[SuzieQNutter]

@secondhandgallop

@SuzieQNutter I very much understand your perspective and appreciate you sharing it. I’m sure many people prescribe to these thoughts and I hope it works amazingly well for them.

However, I simply don’t agree. I vowed that what’s mine is his and what’s his is mine. I’m sure you’re coming from a place of concern, truly, but please don’t worry about me.

Thank you for taking it as it was meant.

Yes we have bank accounts together, but he has a bank account that he puts $100.00 in every pay and spends as he wishes. Usually it is something for the farm.

I have shares I bought as a youngster if everything goes pair shaped it will be enough for a bond and rental so we are not out on the street.

But do keep in your mind all those who have gone before you and history repeats.

You hope for the grow old together and in your own place which hubby and I are doing now. I trust him completely. I wish this for all.

But others who have supported their spouse while they went through med school etc etc, raised kids etc etc and then found they were turned in for a younger model. You see that happen continuously as well.

[Goforward]

As a trainer, I do barter for some services. I would be open to someone proposing your barter situation. The biggest issue for me is ensuring both parties are always feeling like the trade is fair.
I’ve been stuck in barter agreements where I really started to feel like I was getting the short end of the stick. If you find a trainer to trade with, get it all in writing.
And remember that horse trainers exist on paper thin profit margins. If you come in telling the trainer that your rate is $200 per hour, don’t expect them to entertain your offer. (I didn’t get one in writing and ended up with a $300+ bill at the end of an hour of labor from the other party. Needless to say, I returned the 5 owed lessons and never bartered with that individual again)

[Baybear]

I agree with many if not all of the posts here. Apparently you have no established relationship with a trainer so if I was a trainer I’d be put off by someone approaching me to barter design services for lessons. It would be different if the OP were a client, and the trainer approached them to help w/ website/social media in exchange for lessons. I would get free shipping/coaching for helping “groom” for my trainer, then I graduated to barn sitting when she and hubby went on vacation or out of town judging. If you want to ride and need additional income to make that happen, maybe get some freelance design work or a part-time job. I’ve also found that once you get in to a barn, opportunities start to present themselves.

I also agree with the poster who offered some marital financial advice. While the what’s mine is ours is a lovely romantic sentiment I firmly believe in people having their own nest-egg. I’ve see too many situations where women have been completely blindsided by their spouse’s or SO’s spending or secretive financial dealings where they’re now holding the bag. I like the his mine and ours approach, and of course open and honest communication.